What does "intelligence" or "niceness" have to do with it?

[gcbryan]

In several threads about dolphins and/or whales recently claims are being made that no one should hunt these animals for food because of how intelligent or nice they supposedly are. I don't get it. It seems to me first off rather presumptive, and secondly very morally shaky. Does it mean it's OK to eat stupid animals because they're stupid? Do they feel less fear or less pain because of that? Does intelligence or niceness suddenly confer more right to life?

I can think of several good reasons to stop certain kinds of hunting - endangered species, polluted animals, unwanted products for example - but "niceness"? When you're a seal or a fish being chased and eaten I very much doubt that "nice" crosses your mind. And intelligence? It's a big ocean out there and if animals were really that bright I suspect we'd catch far less of them!

Can you posts a link or reference where how nice they are is the real issue?

 

[Kim]

Squirrels are merely rats with bushy tails and good public relations.

I thought rats were supposed to be rather intelligent? Granted they don't have a lot in the cuteness department, although I've met MANY people who keep them as pets. This is actually the point. One person's idea of intelligent or cute can vary wildly from another's. In the absence of any empirical and provable "rightness", how can anyone really get judgmental about others choices without being completely hypocritical?

One most levels I think it does.

Why? Does it apply to everything? People as well? Who decided that?

 

[Kim]

Can you posts a link or reference where how nice they are is the real issue?

Well - that was the main argument made by that Heroes actress Hayden in Taiji for a start. I also don't think that you have to look very far in the various threads to see that several people believe that intelligence is a major factor in the reasoning not to hunt them. Niceness or something like it, also comes up frequently in quotes of this nature:

You've yet to state whether you've been lucky enough to have that type of special encounter with a whale – small, or large. It does change how one feels.

But I dont .... Or have not seen that kind of mercy in the killing of the Dolphins and I am not sure it would matter anyway as I love the sea creatures and can not stand to see them killed!!

For me it's not about the economics - I just have a problem with killing such beautiful apex creatures for food when alternatives obviously exist. That includes any whale.

(These posts are quoted for example only - I'm not trying to single out any of the posters, and I can understand very well that the stated opinions/feelings are genuinely held. They're quoted as they seem to be based on an emotional attachment though, for the "niceness" or something similar of the animals.)

 

[diversteve]

(These posts are quoted for example only - I'm not trying to single out any of the posters, and I can understand very well that the stated opinions/feelings are genuinely held. They're quoted as they seem to be based on an emotional attachment though, for the "niceness" or something similar of the animals.)

I'm one of the posters, although I don't in any way feel "singled out" I do want to reply. And to more than just the previous post. Hope no one takes this personally, I don't...

Ever owned a dog or cat? How did you feel when it died?

For me a a bond with an aquatic species is not much different. It's reinforced every time I see Whales breaching for the sheer exuberance of it or Spinner dolphins just having a good time riding a bow wave. Ever been on a boat when someone spotted dolphins? Did you rush over to take a look? Why?

And I don't see what's wrong with applying my concern selectively. I've chosen the abuse of Whales, Dolphins and Sharks as an area to be involved in being a diver. To a certain extent, I suppose it's also a selfish concern, they're animals I want to see while diving. For that reason I find the recent events in the Galapagos troubling as I'd like to see the remaining unfinned sharks if/when I ever get there.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy a good steak or ham (Pigs are supposed to be smart aren't they?) Being the apex intelligence on this planet allows us to set our own parameters.

And there's good and bad in every species. I don't see how assigning gang characteristics to a pod of Dolphins removed from their natural environment and placed in an artificial habitat can possibly be representative of them in the wild. Maybe they're just bored and spinning turtles is fun...lol.

I watched a pod of Killer Whales harass a mother Humpback to the point of forcing her to abandon her calf which they then tore apart. Yet I'll still oppose efforts to kill them.

 

[lock_washer]

Okay guys...let me throw this one out. Does everyone feel the same passion for other members of the cetacean family? Granted they are not cute, cuddly, or look good on camera, but they are just as important any dolphin, or humpback whale.

I am talking about:
Fresh Water Dolphins..they are ugly, but have unique abilities for living in fresh water.
Porpoises - there are six species of them and the Dall's Porpoise is the fastest cetacean of all.
Beaked Whales - the Cuviers Beaked Whale is the record holder now for deepest diving whale - 6250 feet for 85 minutes...that beats the Sperm Whale for diving.

Its amazing how one ever thinks of these cetaceans..

Lock Washer

 

[diversteve]

Probably not, but then I've never seen them.

Except for the Chinese Pink river dolphins. Which I believe are now extinct.

I did post that I thought it was wrong for the Japanese to kill 930 Minke Whales in the other thread - I don't even know what a Minke Whale is...

I guess everybody picks their own sub-species to protect.

 

[djanni]

So if I kill a human thats less intelligent than me, its ok..
Sounds.. intelligent..

I guess so if you want to put your intelligence down to that level.

 

[Kim]

I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and it's perfectly acceptable to govern your own behaviour as you see fit, and for whatever reason you feel. However - what I'd like to know is how this translates into telling other people how they should behave. We've already seen what happens if vegetarians try to tell meat eaters they shouldn't eat meat, there was a thread on that very recently. How come some people who insist on the right to live their own lives as they see fit also think it's fine to try and dictate to others how they should behave? As I said at the beginning - when stuff is endangered, or polluted etc I personally think a line is crossed where the majority says no based on something real, and everyone lives with it. That's what laws are right? But trying to tell everyone else that they shouldn't hunt something because they are "intelligent" or "nice/magnificent" whatever word fits doesn't cross that emergency line IMO - it's just because some people feel the way they do - and seem to want to tell everyone else how they have to behave. This makes no sense to me.

 

[djanni]

............

 

[djanni]

Why? Does it apply to everything? People as well? Who decided that?

I think it applies to everything. People? I was talking about relative intelligence. Who decides? We do.