What age for tech?

[Thalassamania]

I'd say 25, that's when the brain is fully developed and risks start to be actually understood.

Btw: U.S. Navy no longer uses O2 tolerance tests, they have not been shown to be reliable. I guess I wasted a lot of chamber time in the old days.

 

[DCBC]

You are correct, the outcomes are the same - but the learning process is different. I would much rather break the learning into logical, consistent steps because it makes the learning more constructive. The depth is irrelevant, it's the competence and slickness that comes with experience. The depth is about "you haven't got the skills/equipment/experience yet".

Thanks Andy. As I mentioned, I'm unaware of the recreational agencies programs, content, duration and prerequisites. Commercial courses I've taught include 34 weeks of training on a full-time basis with an additional 12 weeks of work placement (Air). Mixed-gas modules were 10 weeks each with 6 weeks of work placement per module (both modules 32 weeks).

A diver takes a total of 76 weeks to complete the program (approx. a year and a half on a full-time basis). He needs all tickets and a minimum of two-years experience as a full-time commercial diver before he can take the saturation program. What you are describing seems like a logical approach for a recreational diver.

 

[AndyNZ]

In terms of timescales, pretty much all of the TDI courses will take about 4 days each, and involve at least four dives. It's not much time at all, but then the purpose of the training is different from commercial and military diving.

Therefore the experience between dives becomes a lot more important. To go all the way through to TDI Advanced Trimix "could" be done in as little as two weeks - but there's no way that I'd ever suggest that anyone did that.

 

[DCBC]

You should look at this guys comments in the cave diving section, I'm guessing you'll just give up the argument. When you try to debate, you get the "I'm a cavern instructor" response....if you want to see what a joke this is, check the recreational agencies requirements to teach cavern, you'll be shocked

That was not my attitude in the discussion you elude to. I was asked directly what my certifications were regarding Cave Diving. I answered honestly.

I'll repeat the last comment that I made to you on the other thread, I'd appreciate it if you didn't misquote my comments or the spirit of my discussion. Oh yes, I think I also added that it may be beneficial for you to take a reading comprehension class...

 

[DCBC]

In terms of timescales, pretty much all of the TDI courses will take about 4 days each, and involve at least four dives. It's not much time at all, but then the purpose of the training is different from commercial and military diving.

Therefore the experience between dives becomes a lot more important. To go all the way through to TDI Advanced Nitrox "could" be done in as little as two weeks - but there's no way that I'd ever suggest that anyone did that.

That seems to be really short. I can see why you would want to build in a degree of experience between modules. From what I could gather the OP didn't expect any delay between the programs.

 

[Thalassamania]

DCBC and I are both used to teaching to standards that are somewhat different than what most diving instructors do. The reality is that many of the things that recreational and technical instructors expect people to learn from experience, we teach up front, it is a different approach, but it works just fine.

 

[AndyNZ]

That seems to be really short. I can see why you would want to build in a degree of experience between modules. From what I could gather the OP didn't expect any delay between the programs.

I agree - the OP seemed to convey going straight through, which is what worried me.

The timescales are short. But they are also minimums. TDI Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures can be taught in six dives, when the courses are combined together, with a minimum bottom time of 100 minutes (I'd have to check the standards on the last one to be 100% sure). That really means bottom time, not run time. My AN&DP courses are longer, with a minimum of 8 dives + two pool sessions that are not mandated. My students tend to come out diving with either myself or my business partner after finishing the course, so get a lot of support.

DCBC and I are both used to teaching to standards that are somewhat different than what most diving instructors do. The reality is that many of the things that recreational and technical instructors expect people to learn from experience, we teach up front, it is a different approach, but it works just fine.

I think both work fine, Thal. I'm certainly not criticising the longer programmes. What works particularly well for our students is that come diving with us after the course, which makes the modular approach accessible. Students get the basic skills and knowledge, and then time for those to consolidate to build upon them later. What I am criticising is mis-applying the modular approach and ramming it all into as short a time span as possible, without that consolidation time.

 

[Thalassamania]

...`What I am criticising is mis-applying the modular approach and ramming it all into as short a time span as possible, without that consolidation time.

I agree. What you do needs to be keyed to the schedule. Sometimes I teach exactly the same class with daily meetings over two to three weeks that I'm used to teaching with weekly meetings over three months. Makes for a different class.

 

[DCBC]

I agree - the OP seemed to convey going straight through, which is what worried me.

What worries me is the rate that some people seem to be progressing into deeper water. It's one thing for overweight divers to be breathing nitrox at 70 feet, but another for that same diver to be breathing heliox or trimix at 300. If you ask me, it's an accident just waiting to happen.

I've noticed that as I've aged, I've put on some extra weight. After two months off, I put on almost 20 lbs. (10% of my body weight). I didn't feel any differently and thought that I was in reasonable condition. The insurance company hyperbaric physician however didn't agree and told me to lose the weight before he would clear me to dive; which resulted in me missing a cycle (and an unbelievable amount of ribbing from the guys . I've since passed the medical.

Obviously weight and fitness are mitigating factors in diver competence. Do the recreational technical agencies that teach mixed gas have any fitness requirements, or is it similar to an OW program where a person gets signed off by a non-hyperbaric physician?

 

[AndyNZ]

Obviously weight and fitness are mitigating factors in diver competence. Do the recreational technical agencies that teach mixed gas have any fitness requirements, or is it similar to an OW program where a person gets signed off by a non-hyperbaric physician?

I'm only really familiar with GUE and TDI standards, so can't comment generally.

GUE are probably have the most obvious standards. They don't allow smokers to take their courses (GUE instructors have the ability to strip certifications from people they see smoking after a course), they have swim tests for all their courses (surface and u/w breath hold) - though not overly onerous at the entry level, they get tougher as the courses get more challenging. For my Fundies course (which is <30m non-deco nitrox course) half the pre-reading was about smoking, health and fitness. I'm doing the Tech 1 (<57m normoxic trimix) early next year, and expect much the same - plus a good ribbing from the instructor.

What I do like about the GUE courses is that the instructors get in the pool and do the swim test with the students on nearly every course - the guy who is doing my course was the national fin swimming champion of Ireland, and I am a plodder when it comes to swimming. I always feel a bit jipped about timed swim tests as a result, but hey... you have to measure it somehow. GUE also allow holistic health and fitness evaluations by their instructors - taking into account alcohol use, weight etc etc.

TDI do not require any form of fitness evaluation as such for any of their courses, but they also don't preclude it. Most do, however, have skills that require physical fitness - e.g. tired diver tow (in full kit) on the surface and u/w, and an u/w breath hold swim (in full kit). TDI standards allow instructors to exceed the minimum requirements, so we have put in a big classroom section on health and fitness and tend to do swim tests for candidates we don't know. We do waive those for people who have done courses with us before who we know are exercising regularly and diving regularly.

I think the big difference between GUE and TDI is consistency. GUE only has 60 or so instructors worldwide, they all know each other and talk to each other regularly. They also have a recertification requirement (both for divers and instructors) so it's easy to keep quality under control. TDI are at a stage of their development where there are many instructors, and now many instructor trainers, which makes it more of a challenge to maintain some consistency in standard of education. From a potential students perspective, it makes it more important to shop around and find an instructor who will give the student what they need, as opposed to what they want.