Wesley Skiles' widow suing over rebreather

[kwinter]

Chill out a bit. I am certainly not saying that Wes would be alive if he had undergone proper training. Wes was alone, therefore no one can possibly know what happened. Is it possible that something went wrong and better training or an understanding of the RB he borrowed would have made a difference? Absolutely! Is it possible that something happened completely unrelated to the RB and all the training in the world wouldn't have mattered? Absolutely! But is it possible that something went wrong with the RB and neither training nor bailout would have made a difference? Not likely at all! Ergo, the lawsuit is almost certainly frivolous. If the Optima was at fault, training and bailout would have helped. Wes had neither, so the lawsuit is crap. If the Optima wasn't at fault, the lawsuit is crap. Its not about the card, or a holier than thou attitude. If it was operator error, the lawsuit is still crap.

This is not a thread about what Wes did right or wrong. Its about the lawsuit. Please give me a reasonable example in which the suit is valid.

 

[Thalassamania]

Chill out a bit. I am certainly not saying that Wes would be alive if he had undergone proper training. Wes was alone, therefore no one can possibly know what happened.

Wes being alone is, in my mind, a clearly contributing factor and it must be weighed along with any other evidence. I am hell on wheels on the subject and am somewhat notorious for having withdrawn diving authorization, in the middle of an expedition, for a well known U/W photographer who did not want to abide by rules that required a buddy. He sat out for several days, in a snit, whilst trying to get his superiors to bring pressure on my superiors to bring pressure on me ... didn't work. In the end he apologized and dove with a "baby-sitter." I can say, unequivocally that had I been running the operation, there's a good chance that Wes would be here today, but, at a minimum we'd know what went wrong.

Is it possible that something went wrong and better training or an understanding of the RB he borrowed would have made a difference? Absolutely!

That is my suspicion. I do not, however, think it is question of better training or understanding, but rather complacency.

Is it possible that something happened completely unrelated to the RB and all the training in the world wouldn't have mattered? Absolutely!

This I rather doubt and the fact that it occurred on ascent supports my doubt,

But is it possible that something went wrong with the RB and neither training nor bailout would have made a difference? Not likely at all! Ergo, the lawsuit is almost certainly frivolous.

I do not reject that as easily as you appear wont, nor do I, at this stage, argue for it. I remain open to hear the evidence, for that is the basic claim. BTW: you should look up the word "frivolous,' for its misuse, in this context, does not make your argument appear learned. Frivolous refers to something that has no basis, or that is just a legal move in a lawsuit that is intended to harass, delay, or embarrass the opposition. Keep in mind that frivolous lawsuit, motion or appeal can result in a successful claim by the other party for payment by the frivolous plaintiff of their attorneys fees for defending the case. The claim, while it may not be true, is hardly frivolous.

If the Optima was at fault, training and bailout would have helped. Wes had neither, so the lawsuit is crap.

No, it that is the case then, in Florida, it becomes an issue of "pure comparative negligence." The judge or jury will assign a percentage of fault to each responsible party and then apportions the damage award accordingly. From my viewpoint the planitiff is already operating at a disadvantage due to Wes' ascending without a buddy, a fact that would knock a big chunk off any award. But even if Wes was found to be 99% responsible, the award would be reduced by Wes' 99% fault in causing the injury there would still be an award of 1% of damages.

If the Optima wasn't at fault, the lawsuit is crap.

If the Otima was 100% in the clear and Wes as 100% negligent, then you're are correct.

Its not about the card, or a holier than thou attitude.

Go reread the thread, for some of the posters, perhaps not you, it sure as hell is.

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

What a load of crap, knowledge and skills transfer, especially when you're dealing with the highly skilled.

Not from OC to CCR they dont.

It doesnt matter how **** hot you are, or how famous or how much of a pioneer you were or whatever. If you dont understand the mechanics of a CCR it could be fatal. That includes unit specific idiosyncrasies.

No disrespect to Wes, hero, idol and mentor to many. However, his immense stature as one of the worlds top divers doesnt mean that his years and years of OC experience meant he could dive an Optima without training. Be it formal or informal. In addition, the lack of bailout simply distanced him even further from his experience.

No disrespect to you either; as an example, you have quoted F02 on several of your posts. The F02 in the loop is not important. It could be 10% or 100%. It doesnt necessarily matter. Its the P02 that counts. If a CCR had a gauge for both, which one would you have been reading?

 

[Thalassamania]

Not from OC to CCR they dont.

It doesnt matter how **** hot you are, or how famous or how much of a pioneer you were or whatever. If you dont understand the mechanics of a CCR it could be fatal. That includes unit specific idiosyncrasies.

Hot, lukewarm or stone cold ... it doesn't matter, if don't understand the mechanics of any device you use that could be fatal ... even a dinner fork. Wes was a competent cave diver and pioneer underwater photographer, he was not a pioneer diver or a pioneer rebreather user. Wes' error was making a solo CCR ascent without taking the extra care that solo diving requires, he failed to make that transition, and thats, IMHO, what ultimately killed him.

No disrespect to Wes, hero, idol and mentor to many. However, his immense stature as one of the worlds top divers doesnt mean that his years and years of OC experience meant he could dive an Optima without training. Be it formal or informal. In addition, the lack of bailout simply distanced him even further from his experience.

No disrespect to you either; as an example, you have quoted F02 on several of your posts. The F02 in the loop is not important. It could be 10% or 100%. It doesnt necessarily matter. Its the P02 that counts. If a CCR had a gauge for both, which one would you have been reading?

I rather doubt that any level of training specific to the Optima would have made a difference. He knew better than to make that ascent alone, without first flushing and checking, that's the sort of complacency that has killed even pioneer divers and ccr users, not to mention the half-trained lemmings that come into an awful lot of the CCR classes.

As for my using fO2 rather than PO2, I was trained to think in terms of f02 with an upper and lower depth boundary tied to the fraction, since I was trained by Navy instructors, I can only assume that's a Navy approach, or my trainer's idiosyncrasy tied to the MK-15, fraction ... ceiling ... floor. The point being that as long as you're within those limits you can flush first and live to ask questions later, other concepts were built on top of that basic idea, you checked ppO2 for your instant well being, but you thought about fO2 to decide what you could, or had to, do next.

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

Hot, lukewarm or stone cold ... it doesn't matter, if don't understand the mechanics of any device you use that could be fatal ... even a dinner fork. Wes was a competent cave diver and pioneer underwater photographer, he was not a pioneer diver or a pioneer rebreather user. Wes' error was making a solo CCR ascent without taking the extra care that solo diving requires, he failed to make that transition, and thats, IMHO, what ultimately killed him.
I rather doubt that any level of training specific to the Optima would have made a difference. He knew better than to make that ascent alone, without first flushing and checking, that's the sort of complacency that has killed even pioneer divers and ccr users, not to mention the half-trained lemmings that come into an awful lot of the CCR classes.

As for my using fO2 rather than PO2, I was trained to think in terms of f02 with an upper and lower depth boundary tied to the fraction, since I was trained by Navy instructors, I can only assume that's a Navy approach, or my trainer's idiosyncrasy tied to the MK-15, fraction ... ceiling ... floor. The point being that as long as you're within those limits you can flush first and live to ask questions later, other concepts were built on top of that basic idea, you checked ppO2 for your instant well being, but you thought about fO2 to decide what you could, or had to, do next.

You just demonstrated my point. Unfortunately your training doesnt translate to sport rebreather diving. Theres no additional procedures for making a solo ascent versus a buddy / team ascent. Theres no flushing prior to ascent and F02 as you have described is neither trained nor used as a paramater in modern civilian CCR diving.

 

[kwinter]

You just demonstrated my point. Unfortunately your training doesnt translate to sport rebreather diving. Theres no additional procedures for making a solo ascent versus a buddy / team ascent. Theres no flushing prior to ascent and F02 as you have described is neither trained nor used as a paramater in modern civilian CCR diving.

Thanks Chris. The flushing before ascent had me laughing.

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

Thanks Chris. The flushing before ascent had me laughing.

You're welcome Ken. I dont mean to try and call anyone out, but when misleading or confusing information is proffered as the basis for someones opinion as to the cause of a fatality, I thinks its important to point it out.

There's no evidence that Wes did anything. Theres no evidence he didnt do anything either, except dive a unit on which he was not trained, did not own and on which did not follow standard protocol of diving with bailout.

To suggest that his OC experience should suffice on an eCCR is just ill informed. Jet pilots cant fly helicopters unless trained. Even if they are a test pilot and flew a thousand combat missions.

 

[Thalassamania]

First, at the onset, let me stress that I'm not a CCR guru or power user. CCRs are, for me, a tool for rare use that has many additional dangers and contradictory issues. For example, if your doing the kind of work that, say, RIch Pyle is doing: remote islands, very deep, no local source of helium or oxygen (all shipped in or carried with you), it is (by far) the best (or perhaps the only) way to get your work done. But I must say that I am quite disturbed by what I've read in this thread from those who style themselves CCR guru or power users.

You just demonstrated my point. Unfortunately your training doesnt translate to sport rebreather diving. Theres no additional procedures for making a solo ascent versus a buddy / team ascent. Theres no flushing prior to ascent and F02 as you have described is neither trained nor used as a paramater in modern civilian CCR diving.

I don't know whether it translates to your view of sport rebreather diving. I don't do sport diving. I have never made a recreational rebreather dive, but then neither (or rarely) did Wes, our diving is for real. Actual, honest-to-goodness "professional" diving.

If you are not more careful making a solo ascent than you'd be making an ascent with a buddy, sorry, but you just don't get it, and need to back to square one, even if that extra is as little as a flush and check of sensors prior to ascent (which is the most dangerous point in the dive).

Thanks Chris. The flushing before ascent had me laughing.

Let me point you to a quote from a PM I received from a European CCR manufacturer:

"In the user manuals for the rebreathers we design we looked at the ascent procedures in a lot of detail based on the accidents in each of these different communities. The procedures are quite different for different sectors. Military diving is based on keeping to depth ranges and flushing, Commercial diving is based on the unit adjusting PPO2 automatically to optimize safety."

"For sports divers we concluded the best approach was to advise the diver to bail out for ascent."
​

I have found that when I pay attention to what others do, especially those who to those with the most experience and the best safety record, I often find, that despite my preconceived notions I often learn something.

I'm very interested in why in the sports CCR community you would think in terms of ppO2 rather than fO2 and why you would not do a "precautionary" flush on a task loaded solo ascent.

The way I was taught you start with a defined fO2 for your diluent. For shallow work normoxic is nice, cause that'll always permit your return to the surface following a flush. But anyway, the way I was taught, an fO2 references a floor and a ceiling, giving a range. This is also a concept that jibes nicely with habitat based saturation, where you could adjust your diluent's ceiling to match your permitted upward excursion limit. Now sure, your display reads in ppO2 and that's what sets off the alarm bells for immediate action, but you think and plan in terms of the the depth interval that is a fixed feature of your diluent's fO2. Diving hypoxic mixes, of course, means that you have a ceiling that is below the water surface, and so there are special considerations for your ascent.

Now, sort of the first corollary of this, is that if you stay in your diluent's range and you flush, it almost doesn't matter what might have gone wrong, that'll save your life ... at least for the moment.

Now that you understand where I am coming from, would you be so kind as to explain to me why the sports divers don't use these concepts or procedures? It seems to be to be the simplest and most straightforward approach to emergencies and just plain good sense when it comes to procedures. So why the chortles?

...

To suggest that his OC experience should suffice on an eCCR is just ill informed. ...

Also, with respect to Wes, I don't believe that was his first CCR dive, in fact, I believe that he had a fair amount of experience with a number of other units, more than I have. Also, I don't know what led you to jump into the pit of "OC doesn't translate to CCR," nobody said that it did, or did not, that was a strawman of your own creation.

 

[diveprof]

Personally, I think this unfortunate accident exemplies observations made over the years regarding those who "chase the dragon" and begin to take unacceptable risks thinking that they do not apply to them due to their level of experience/accomplishment. How many "notable" divers have to die? Yeah, I hear it is their choice to take these risk - and to each their own. However, I tell my students that there are bold divers, and there are old divers, but their are not many old bold divers.....

 

[johnmckenzie]

I know nothing about this case, but isn't it the job of police to maintain the chain of custody?

I have read the police and ME reports and the chain of custody seems to have been maintained. The ME report also contradicts the plaintiff's claims the that inspection was not filmed and that it was done without witnesses. This report also claims that the equipment was examined separately by a NEDU unit in Panama City.

---------- Post Merged at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:40 PM ----------

If anyone knows who I can speak with to help me understand the toxicology screen associated with this case and how it may effect a diver on a re-breather, please contact me directly. I could also use some help on interpreting Derrick's report on the re-breather. Thank you.