Vortex 3-18-2012

[MPetitfils]

For what it's worth, it's my understanding based on a conversation with Larry's father that the coroner determined that the mixture of gasses in his blood caused him to enter a euphoric state and fall asleep. He was found sitting upright. Ed told Larry's father that based on what he saw, Larry went very peacefully. Ed had to make two trips to retrieve Larry. It is my understanding that Ed and Larry were good friends. He was draped in the flag by some Marine friends of his who went to the springs.

Final services were held Friday. Larrys remains were cremated, and will be interred in the VA cemetary and a particular cave he loved.

 

[Jax]

Thank you for sharing that, Mark!

When someone is deep, the pressure of the breathing air goes up, too. People absorb a lot more nitrogen (and oxygen, but it is metabolized). Being deep with that much nitrogen leads to nitrogen narcosis.

Know one thing, Mark -- people will take away from this those thoughts of family as you have pointed out, and since you've told us about the "euphoric state", it may make people think twice about challenging the deep with just air.

Anything Edd says, you can take to the bank. I hope you feel better knowing Larry didn't suffer. Again, Thank you, and know we are thinking of all of you. If you have any questions, we'll do our best to answer.

 

[grantwiscour]

Thanks for adding the photo.

 

[Jax]

Yes, thanks for adding the photo. There is a man sharing his love of diving!

 

[MPetitfils]

For my own knowledge, based on Jax's post, this was the result of a procedural/judgement error that would occur irregardless of the particular place a diver was? (ie, this didn't happen because he was cave diving)

 

[Jax]

For my own knowledge, based on Jax's post, this was the result of a procedural/judgement error that would occur irregardless of the particular place a diver was? (ie, this didn't happen because he was cave diving)

Nitrogen narcosis happens at depth, anywhere. Some are 'hit' as high as 80 feet below the surface, by 100', you are affected for sure even if you don't feel it. There are stories of people trying to share air with fish, for example. I would not be quick to call it a "result of a procedural/ju1dgement error", because the narcosis is different for everyone and any time. Some will dive to 130 several times and not have a problem, then one time it will hit at 100'. Diving physiology is not fixed - you may be more or less dehydrated, more or less fatigued, you don't know.

 

[MPetitfils]

Ok. We can at least put to rest the "ban cave diving" arguments. My mother talked to a news station in Tennessee that wanted to run a story on how dangerous the cave was based on the disappearance of that fellow from Tennessee and this incident. She declined, of course, to support that position. As a poster put it so well earlier in the thread, we are responsible for our own actions.

By the way, first quote in your sig is epic, Jax.

 

[Jax]

Ok. We can at least put to rest the "ban cave diving" arguments. My mother talked to a news station in Tennessee that wanted to run a story on how dangerous the cave was based on the disappearance of that fellow from Tennessee and this incident.

Cave diving is no more dangerous than any other adventure support - skydiving, hang-gliding, mountain climbing, rock climbing, dry caving, motocross, surfing . . .

As long as you are well-trained and mentored, the risk is something you assess and choose to accept, or not. The more extreme you go, the more risk you are accepting. That is why the prevailing attitude amongst cave divers is that no one should enter an overhead environment unless trained. Until you are trained, you do not know the risk you are taking, and you don't know how to handle it when the stuff hits the oscillator.

 

[SandyRobinson]

Mark, thanks for the posts, and God bless you and your family. You have been in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[irishsquid]

For my own knowledge, based on Jax's post, this was the result of a procedural/judgement error that would occur irregardless of the particular place a diver was? (ie, this didn't happen because he was cave diving)

Nitrogen narcosis happens at depth, anywhere. Some are 'hit' as high as 80 feet below the surface, by 100', you are affected for sure even if you don't feel it. There are stories of people trying to share air with fish, for example. I would not be quick to call it a "result of a procedural/ju1dgement error", because the narcosis is different for everyone and any time. Some will dive to 130 several times and not have a problem, then one time it will hit at 100'. Diving physiology is not fixed - you may be more or less dehydrated, more or less fatigued, you don't know.

Jax is correct that narcosis can hit at different times, different depths, the degree of narcosis may vary each time, and affects people in different ways at different times. It occurs in any environment, be it cave or open water. With that said, there is a big difference between narcosis in open water and in a cave: In open water, you can ascend and reduce the effect if not eliminate it once depth is reduced. In a tight/restrictive cave, that option is not always readily available. I mention this not as a comment on procedural/judgement error either, just another issue that needs to be factored in when cave diving, along with the many other risks involved. Sorry for your loss.