Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[rjack321]

You always run a line for every wreck penetration?

I haven't in the Great Lakes, but there's almost no silt there either. And I am willing accept the risk of doing a swim through. In Puget Sound and Canada I always run a line.

Students don't know what they don't know and by definition a class can't have enough dives on a single wreck to have "progressive penetration". So not running a line is just being lazy. In my PADI wreck class way back in 2004(?) we ran a line on every dive including our "graduation" dives. We were students and learning. Progressive penetration was discussed as something you might do with dozens of dives in a particular area of a wreck but highly discouraged for a novice student.

 

[cerich]

, he de didn’t teach these guys to dive. If they showed up with bad habits, he isn’t going to fix them in his advanced wreck class.

I like the figure skating/hockey analogy. Styles of diving are going to vary regionally and priorities are going to to change depending on the situation. I know very few divers that would be happy to see a video of them diving posted on the Net. Most divers are not as elegant as they think they are.

actually, if my students don't show up for advanced technical training with basic foundation skills, they don't progress until they have them. They can pay me to teach them or they can go get them and come back. It's irresponsible of me to take students on advanced technical training when they don't have the skills that will allow them to expnad their diving knowledge and being safe while doing so. I would be doing them a disservice.

asto the figure skating/hockey thing, meh. This Canadian knows that hockey players have amazing foundational skating skills

 

[doctormike]

I haven't in the Great Lakes, but there's almost no silt there either. And I am willing accept the risk of doing a swim through. In Puget Sound and Canada I always run a line.

Students don't know what they don't know and by definition a class can't have enough dives on a single wreck to have "progressive penetration". So not running a line is just being lazy. In my PADI wreck class way back in 2004(?) we ran a line on every dive including our "graduation" dives. We were students and learning. Progressive penetration was discussed as something you might do with dozens of dives in a particular area of a wreck but highly discouraged for a novice student.

Sure, and I don't mean to imply that there is no place for a wreck line. I agree with you that they can be lifesaving.

But I just wanted to respond to that other post about ALWAYS needing a line. Like most decisions in diving, the use of a line in a wreck is based on the specifics of the situation. In addition to entanglement issues (for those of us who "suck at running line"), there is the extra gas usage (on OC) and inert gas loading due to extra time at depth.

Another point that JC made in the class was that sometimes running a line will encourage deeper and longer penetration than should be prudently done without a real awareness and knowledge of the surroundings. In wrecks, lines can break on sharp edges. So it's important that it not be seen as a line OR progressive penetration. One anecdote that he told in class was when a well known diver told him that he had gone 400 feet into the Doria with a wreck reel. JC said "Cool! Where did you go?" "Hmmm... "

So just like you mentioned, there are situations where you might not choose to run a line, so the take home shouldn't be that if you don't run a line, you are by definition doing it wrong.

 

[doctormike]

This Canadian knows that hockey players have amazing foundational skating skills

The point of that analogy wasn't that figure skaters are better skaters than hockey players. The point is that they don't avoid hitting a wall or other skaters, right?

 

[Zack-Bloom]

Did you and your buddy feel that the training and the skills/knowledge gained, if any, worth it and justify the "propaganda" for the course?

I don't personally know about the propaganda, we first heard of Chatterton listening to Shadow Divers on our drives to Monterey, and then learned a lot more from his website. I would say it was much better than we expected. The ways of rigging spools and reels, SMB technique (despite our struggles in the video), and method of keeping track of runtime during the dive all make much more sense than anything in the SSI or TDI manuals we have read. He answered every question with actual experience having tried every gear configuration and dumb idea I could imagine. He spent maybe 12 hours with us a day, including going over everyone's dive profile after every dive, and we got a free strobe out of it. He was funny and kind and everyone at the shop seems to love him. It was, I think, the best in-person-education experience of my life (god was it a better investment than college...).

Does he teach no buddy check when switching gas?

No, he teaches to have a buddy verify the gas and the computers _after_ the gas switch has been made. It's a technique which relies more on you having self awareness, but it also ensures that when they make the check your buddy can actually verify what regulator you are breathing from (not just what you're holding). I believe the decision to operate in that way is based on the idea that breathing the wrong mix is very dangerous for an extended period of time, but not nearly as dangerous for a few breaths. The advantage of switching on your own is it makes it easier to get the timing perfect.

 

[rjack321]

I like the figure skating/hockey analogy. Styles of diving are going to vary regionally and priorities are going to to change depending on the situation. I know very few divers that would be happy to see a video of them diving posted on the Net. Most divers are not as elegant as they think they are.

While I might be chocked up as a SB keyboard warrior, I'm not afraid to post video of myself here

ps I have the red & black suit, blue and black hood. Orange dry gloves. Some other divers on the boat sometimes swim by. And I forget why my head is bubbling so bad in the second video bah

 

[doctormike]

While I might be chocked up as a SB keyboard warrior, I'm not afraid to post video of myself here

Props! Great skills, great wrecks, great video.

 

[rjack321]

Sure, and I don't mean to imply that there is no place for a wreck line. I agree with you that they can be lifesaving.

But I just wanted to respond to that other post about ALWAYS needing a line. Like most decisions in diving, the use of a line in a wreck is based on the specifics of the situation. In addition to entanglement issues (for those of us who suck at running lines), there is the extra gas usage (on OC) and inert gas loading due to extra time at depth.

Another point that JC made in the class was that sometimes running a line will encourage deeper and longer penetration than should be prudently done without a real awareness and knowledge of the surroundings. In wrecks, lines can break on sharp edges. So it's important that it not be seen as a line OR progressive penetration. One anecdote that he told in class was when a well known diver told him that he had gone 400 feet into the Doria with a wreck reel. JC said "Cool! Where did you go?" "Hmmm... "

So just like you mentioned, there are situations where you might not choose to run a line, so the take home shouldn't be that if you don't run a line, you are by definition doing it wrong.

So a "famous" instructor talks about how progressive pen. can be safer
Then you don't run a line on your wreck dives in class even though you only have a couple dives (at most) on a given wreck

1) how are your line skills ever going to get better if you don't have (class) supervised practice
2) are you ever going to run a line? I mean it was "safer" in class without one right? How do you develop the judgement to know you need one if you didn't use one on your first dive on a wreck?

 

[doctormike]

So a "famous" instructor talks about how progressive can be safer
Then you don't run a line on your wreck dives in class even though you only have a couple dives (at most) on a given wreck

1) how are you line skills ever going to get better if you don't have (class) supervised practice
2) are you ever going to run a line? I mean it was "safer" in class without one right? How do you develop the judgement to know you need one if you didn't use one on your first dive on a wreck?

Not sure how you got the impression that we didn't run lines in class. I was just saying that like everything else, you don't ALWAYS do it, you don't NEVER do it, you think about the dive and make a plan...

 

[rddvet]

No, he teaches to have a buddy verify the gas and the computers _after_ the gas switch has been made. It's a technique which relies more on you having self awareness, but it also ensures that when they make the check your buddy can actually verify what regulator you are breathing from (not just what you're holding). I believe the decision to operate in that way is based on the idea that breathing the wrong mix is very dangerous for an extended period of time, but not nearly as dangerous for a few breaths. The advantage of switching on your own is it makes it easier to get the timing perfect.

That sounds like a bad idea. Buddy verification at time of switch is the gold standard. The whole point of doing a buddy check is so that if your self awareness breaks down (aka diving air to 165 like in your class), you've got someone ensuring it's right before you start puffing on it. What if you're buddy's narced too and swims off in the other direction. Now you're breathing the wrong mix for a minute while you wait for him to get his head straight? While that's not totally realistic, it's a simple example of why verifying before breathing is the gold standard. I don't think his argument is a strong one.

Not sure how you got the impression that we didn't run lines in class. I was just saying that like everything else, you don't ALWAYS do it, you don't NEVER do it, you think about the dive and make a plan...

You really need to watch the video before you continue to comment. Honestly it's starting to sound like you're trying to justify things as being OK because he was your instructor. That may not be the case, but that's how it's starting to come off. So watch the video and then let us know what you think. BTW, I think the reasonings for not running a line that you say he gave are a little bit of BS, but that's just me. I'm not a big wreck diver.