USS Mohawk diver missing - Florida

[Bob DBF]

I would assume in a panic they simply forgot, $20 was probably not the first thing on their mind.

It is imperative that you drop your belt on the road to panic, once you panic nothing helpful will cross your mind.

Harassment drills can be quite constructive, knowing how much you can take gives you an idea of when to drop the belt. Unfortunately, it's hard to find someone that can administer them well and they are, at the moment, out of vogue.


Bob

 

[ScubaDave65531]

Sadly this is a guy I know. I've never dove with him, so I can't attest to his abilities. Regardless of reason, it is still a tragedy.

 

[clownfishsydney]

What about inflating your BCD instead of dropping your weights? Surely not everyone who dies like this is totally 100% out of air? Remember the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid, that is, as soon as your surface fill your BCD. I cannot believe that so many people do not do this (and even more how many take off their masks!!!!).

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

What about inflating your BCD instead of dropping your weights? Surely not everyone who dies like this is totally 100% out of air? Remember the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid, that is, as soon as your surface fill your BCD. I cannot believe that so many people do not do this (and even more how many take off their masks!!!!).

Dropping weights is a last resort not a first - however it should be able to be accomplished in one swift motion. Inflating your BCD although when you are calm seems very straight forward - but is not done in one swift motion and takes time. In the old days with Horsecollars we had a CO2 cartridge that would inflate with one motion - pull the chord and like an air bag deployment it would fill the vest and you would float...

 

[Wookie]

What about inflating your BCD instead of dropping your weights? Surely not everyone who dies like this is totally 100% out of air? Remember the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid, that is, as soon as your surface fill your BCD. I cannot believe that so many people do not do this (and even more how many take off their masks!!!!).

I've been involved in 3 recoveries, and around multiple others. In no case did the diver drop his weights. In one case, the diver obviously had a heart attack at depth and his weights were ditched by his instructor (he was in class at the time), but the divers were in deco, so they couldn't just send him to the surface, the buddies were bent in any case. In another case, the diver surfaced, signaled the boat, and sunk before the rescue boat could get there. The rescue boat driver grabbed the diver by the hair and got his airway clear, and ditched his weight integrated Zeagle. It all sunk and was never recovered, so it is unknown the status of his cylinder, but the diver never attempted to manually inflate or power inflate. Cause of death in that case was a tunnelled coronary artery, so he was dead before he surfaced, he just didn't know it yet. The third case, the diver walked to the side of the boat, jumped off, and was dead when he hit the water. I say that because he hit the water, was completely unresponsive, and when dragged back up onto the boat was so obviously dead our physician didn't have us start CPR. This guy was just plain dead.

Finding bodies at the bottom is almost always a case of the diver being dead out of air.

 

[boulderjohn]

I've been involved in 3 recoveries, and around multiple others. In no case did the diver drop his weights. In one case, the diver obviously had a heart attack at depth and his weights were ditched by his instructor (he was in class at the time), but the divers were in deco, so they couldn't just send him to the surface, the buddies were bent in any case. In another case, the diver surfaced, signaled the boat, and sunk before the rescue boat could get there. The rescue boat driver grabbed the diver by the hair and got his airway clear, and ditched his weight integrated Zeagle. It all sunk and was never recovered, so it is unknown the status of his cylinder, but the diver never attempted to manually inflate or power inflate. Cause of death in that case was a tunnelled coronary artery, so he was dead before he surfaced, he just didn't know it yet. The third case, the diver walked to the side of the boat, jumped off, and was dead when he hit the water. I say that because he hit the water, was completely unresponsive, and when dragged back up onto the boat was so obviously dead our physician didn't have us start CPR. This guy was just plain dead.

Finding bodies at the bottom is almost always a case of the diver being dead out of air.

As I understand what you are saying, in all three cases the diver was too incapacitated to drop his weights, or really do anything at all to assist himself. Is that correct?

The recent joint PADI/DAN study of dive fatalities that led to some of the recent changes in the PADI training system concluded that the most common reason for a fatality was a coronary event, but the most common training-related reason was drowning preceded by embolism preceded by panicked ascent preceded by OOA. As a result, PADI's new training puts new emphasis on the buddy system, awareness of air supply, and emergency weight drop. The emergency weight drop is good, but if a person makes an inappropriate rapid ascent that leads to a CAGE, that person may well reach the surface, call for help, and then die before that is possible.

In my IDC, we were shown a video that was a re-enactment of a real training death that occurred during a pool session, featuring inappropriate actions by both the instructor and the DM assisting. In that incident, the student did exactly what the PADI/DAN study said was the most common preventable cause of death--went OOA in the deep end of the pool, surfaced in a panic, and died within seconds of reaching the surface. If a diver is in that situation, that diver will not drop weights, but it will not be a result of poor decision-making.

I think the primary reason that many and perhaps most fatalities that feature divers not dropping weights is because the diver was incapacitated, not because he or she did not think of it. As I read it, the real training failure in the PADI/DAN study was not failure to drop weights, it was the combination of going OOA, not making an air share with a buddy (for whatever reason), and making a rapid, breath-holding ascent.

 

[Bob DBF]

What about inflating your BCD instead of dropping your weights? Surely not everyone who dies like this is totally 100% out of air? Remember the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid, that is, as soon as your surface fill your BCD. I cannot believe that so many people do not do this (and even more how many take off their masks!!!!).

That would be good, it also assumes that you have your wits about you at the time which usually is not the case in events like these.

As for keeping it simple, for NDL divers "drop the belt" is about as simple as it gets, not saying it is the best idea but it will work. I was lent an emergency mantra from an old diver when I started diving. It was to be used in an emergency and it went:

Drop the belt
I can try X, didn't work
Drop the belt
I can try y, didn't work
Drop the belt
I can try z, didn't work
Drop the belt
this can go on until you solve the problem or you entertain thoughts of your own death at which point you know what to do
Drop the belt

At any point you run out of options, or you feel it necessary, you can drop the belt because it is first on your mind, breaking some of the tunnel vision. The belt will be dropped and when you claw your way to the surface you will stay there. Granted that God knows what shape you will be in, but you will be on the surface where your mates can do their best to help you.



Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Wookie]

As I understand what you are saying, in all three cases the diver was too incapacitated to drop his weights, or really do anything at all to assist himself. Is that correct?

The recent joint PADI/DAN study of dive fatalities that led to some of the recent changes in the PADI training system concluded that the most common reason for a fatality was a coronary event, but the most common training-related reason was drowning preceded by embolism preceded by panicked ascent preceded by OOA. As a result, PADI's new training puts new emphasis on the buddy system, awareness of air supply, and emergency weight drop. The emergency weight drop is good, but if a person makes an inappropriate rapid ascent that leads to a CAGE, that person may well reach the surface, call for help, and then die before that is possible.

In my IDC, we were shown a video that was a re-enactment of a real training death that occurred during a pool session, featuring inappropriate actions by both the instructor and the DM assisting. In that incident, the student did exactly what the PADI/DAN study said was the most common preventable cause of death--went OOA in the deep end of the pool, surfaced in a panic, and died within seconds of reaching the surface. If a diver is in that situation, that diver will not drop weights, but it will not be a result of poor decision-making.

I think the primary reason that many and perhaps most fatalities that feature divers not dropping weights is because the diver was incapacitated, not because he or she did not think of it. As I read it, the real training failure in the PADI/DAN study was not failure to drop weights, it was the combination of going OOA, not making an air share with a buddy (for whatever reason), and making a rapid, breath-holding ascent.

Every fatality I have been involved in has ended in a coronary event, but it's a chicken and egg thing. I have never near drowned nor had a heart attack, but I have panicked at the surface. I dropped my weights, got my head out of the water, and the panic was over.

I'm told that a heart attack often involves crushing pain, which is why we teach right hand release for weights, because the left hand may be incapacitated. Drowning and near drowning I would guess involves blind panic, where the air God provided is the only goal, regardless of depth (Chris and Chrissy come to mind).

So, is the coronary event precipitated by panic and near drowning and being out of air, or is the out of air and drowning the final stage of a coronary event? I'd guess both are equally true, depending on how the event starts (OOA or Coronary event).

Having eyewitnesses to a coronary event underwater is an eye opener. The diver on a rebreather exhibited signs of extreme discomfort underwater. He refused the loop, and switched to BOV bailout. He went off of BOV bailout and went to offboard bailout. He refused his own offboard bailout and took his buddies bailout. He went off of his buddies bailout and went back to his BOV in bailout mode, then went back on the loop. At that time, the team started up. He unzipped his wetsuit down to the top chest strap. He then went unresponsive, but retained the loop in a fast breathing mode, not getting any O2, but not filling his airway either. He then (at the 20 foot stop) went completely unresponsive and all muscles went slack (he lost the loop), and his buddies switched him to BOV bailout to maintain integrity of the rebreather. It was 20 minutes before I could get the Spree to the team (I had other teams in deco, and even after we recalled them, it still took 20 minutes to get them out of the water) although the chase boat was there before they surfaced. When we finally got the Spree there, the AED advised no shock, and the Coast Guard took him away.

 

[computerdeals]

Sadly this was my friend of 20 years and I had dived with him on a number of occasions. He was certified as a Master Scuba Diver.
My friends and I think it likely that heart attack or stroke may have been involved. Fitness, it makes a difference. RIP Jerry

 

[boulderjohn]

Every fatality I have been involved in has ended in a coronary event, but it's a chicken and egg thing.

Either way, in such cases, people who are rendered unconscious or dead in the water by either a coronary event or an air embolism will not be able to release their weights. Since the topic of the thread is the tragic passing of this specific individual, I don't think it is appropriate to discuss his failure to release weights as if it were a poor decision unless there is clear evidence that he was in a position to make that decision.