Using a spool to return to anchor on boat dive

[Gombessa]

Well put, Lynne.

Rest deleted.

 

[DocWong]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMD
In Monterey, 4 to 6 foot swells is a great day and 7 to 9's are common and boats taking experienced divers out on 12 to 16 foot swells.

Kevin I have a great deal of respect for you and your posts, and usually I agree with them...but I'm calling BS on this.

I dive in Monterey and have to agree that 4 to 6 foot swells is a good day, 7 to 9s are common and have dived in 12 foot waves which turned out to be fantastic dives. 16 I've not had the opportunity to try out as I haven't been in Monterey for that to tempt me.

A few weeks ago during the Maverick's International Surfing contest weekend, I dove Point Lobos near Monterey and had a "sporty" but still divable day. On those days it's not for the faint of heart and you definitely do have to be on your toes. At one point my scooter was just keeping up with the headway current with the kelp pretty flat due to the current and I continued because the current was moving in the right direction. My biggest conern was what were the conditions going to be like getting out of the water, but it got calmer when we finished our dive.

I suspect these wave examples somehow apply differently in different areas. When I dive in other locations new to me, I weigh heavily on local knowledge.

 

[rjack321]

Lamont, I usually enormously respect your input, and have for a couple of years, but in this case, I think you're a little off base, and somewhat influenced by what you have available to you at home.

Peter and I did a lovely day of diving in Los Angeles off a boat which is usually the purview of a particular club, which specializes in wreck "salvage" (AKA tearing big pieces off of boats underwater). I can't remember exactly how many divers were on the boat, but it was at least a dozen. The four of us were the only people even REMOTELY DIR on the boat. My guess is that no one else on it had even heard the term. The captain was very competent, and the briefings were clear. One dive was anchored, and the other two were live boat. (Live boat is unusual in LA; they went into great detail on how to enter and how we would be picked up, because most of the divers were not accustomed to doing that.)

We dove 32%. We set our profiles and our run times. We dove as two buddy pairs, and stayed together and in communication. We surfaced as planned and reboarded the boat without incident.

There was nothing non-DIR about our dive experience, even though it was sort of a "cattle boat", and certainly nobody else on it ran through a complete dive plan, did equipment check or bubble checks.

We should have run line on the first dive, though

This is how I've been diving in the Channel Islands as well. Non-DIR boat, basically DIR dives. It was anchored all the time and I think on one dive they had to deploy their chase boat to go pick up a wayward team. I would not have done more aggressive dives off this boat though.

Vs. some local boats like Deep Sea and Bandito have had 10-14 divers aboard and I have done Tech1 level dives with runtimes matching the recreational divers (55-65 mins). Typically at a site where there's no free ascent anyway. These boats rarely anchor on site and its worked fine.

"Cattle boats are not DIR" is a black answer in a world of grays

 

[rjack321]

ouch! you are harsh tonight!

 

[RTodd]

I think everyone can agree that cattle boats suck and are to be avoided if possible. When you can't avoid them adjust diving accordingly. Sometimes that may mean not diving but most of the time it means a nice safe recreational profile with the ability to react to what the once a year divers will do. When I lived in Oz, the cattle boats in the tropics held around 300 people, mostly snorkelers. I made sure that I was the biggest PITA possible with tank size requests (stnd tanks are 63, not 80 there), showing up with scooters, etc. to make sure that they didn't forget I was on the boat since we would always be among the last coming back onboard.

Back on topic, whether to use a line or not is highly site specific. For most locations where a cattle boat is taking you, you probably don't need a line and basic OW navigation techniques will serve you fine. Practice those before violating DIR principles and brining an unneaded tool to fix a skill problem. But, some conditions my require it. I would just caution that most dive sites are chosen by larger operators to keep the relatively inexperienced divers safe meaning you probably don't need to muck about with a reel on these boats.

 

[Love2Scuba4471]

Can anyone tell me what DIR is?

 

[Adobo]

Can anyone tell me what DIR is?

It's an acronym. In this forum, it stands for Doing it Right. More details here - http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/44823-what-dir.html

In the other forums, it stands for Doing it Rong.

 

[limeyx]

Back on topic, whether to use a line or not is highly site specific.

Agreed. For recreational diving in SoCal, 99% of the sites do not need a line, and 99% of the divers will not ever run one, and probably 99% are not setup to deal with the implications of running a line (using 1/3's minumum, following the line blind, not seeking the surface at the first sign of problems etc.)

There are a few sites in the middle of a huge shipping lane populated by oil tankers, cargo ships and cruise liners where it is a *really good idea* to run a line if the boat does not hook the wreck.

I can testify (having managed to not find the upline even though it was on the wreck) that the vis on those spots can go from 10 feet to 2 feet quicker than one might think, and what started out as not needing a line can result in a drifting ascent very close to that shipping lane.

It all ends up being a judgement call, and in the end a tradeoff. Realistically, even if we had a limited-load "DIR" boat in this area, probably 3/4 of those people would not have tech or cave training, and so still would not necessarily have the correct training to do a dive where you *have* to return to the upline under any circumstances.

 

[astrofunk]

Given all the discussion about "cattleboats" (though I find the term unnecessarily pejorative, myself), I think it's fair to amend my summary:

1. People definitely run guidelines in order to return to the anchor, provided the conditions demand it. When compass/natural navigation would suffice, it's a better choice not to replace skill with equipment.

2. It still sounds to me like it's a better bet to make a primary tie-off near the anchor, not on it.

3. Reels do this job better than spools, owing both to the amount of line they afford, and to the greater ease with which the line can be laid and taken up.

Twice I've been on dive boats -- once in Catalina, once in Monterey -- where I think all would agree that the conditions merited running a line. In fact, the only other divers to get in the water -- both full cave divers -- on that Monterey boat DID run a line. Now that I've had some overhead training (however limited) and have gotten some feedback about how people manage guidelines in open water, I won't hesitate to reach for my spool if I find myself in similar conditions in the future.

 

[Adobo]

This was my impression as well. If it is that desirable to get back to the anchor line, then there might be additional things to think about on top of navigation.. such as gas planning.

Agreed. For recreational diving in SoCal, 99% of the sites do not need a line, and 99% of the divers will not ever run one, and probably 99% are not setup to deal with the implications of running a line (using 1/3's minumum, following the line blind, not seeking the surface at the first sign of problems etc.)

There are a few sites in the middle of a huge shipping lane populated by oil tankers, cargo ships and cruise liners where it is a *really good idea* to run a line if the boat does not hook the wreck.

I can testify (having managed to not find the upline even though it was on the wreck) that the vis on those spots can go from 10 feet to 2 feet quicker than one might think, and what started out as not needing a line can result in a drifting ascent very close to that shipping lane.

It all ends up being a judgement call, and in the end a tradeoff. Realistically, even if we had a limited-load "DIR" boat in this area, probably 3/4 of those people would not have tech or cave training, and so still would not necessarily have the correct training to do a dive where you *have* to return to the upline under any circumstances.