Training your skipper

[rjack321]

I am coming across more and more dive operators who are either: 1) not technical diving savy, or worse 2) don't understand how to find, mark, and get divers down onto a wreck. Frequently these charter operators are the only ones operating in an area, or the trip was arranged by someone else and its hard to know ahead of time how much experience they have.

For the first issue an otherwise novice operator often just lets us do our thing. Their inexperience only gets to be a true handicap at the more challenging sites. Its the second issue which is really getting frustrating. Surface issues I have experienced in the past year:

Not knowing how to use their depth sounder & settings thereof
Not knowing how to use their GPS
Not understanding selective availability
Not knowing how to mow a pattern
Not knowing when to shot line vs when to grappel
Not knowing the effects & impact of slack/scope in the upline
Not knowing how to talk to VTS
Trying to pickup divers from upwind & upcurrent

These aren't "structural" things. These are the mental skills of the skipper, and they are really tough to evaluate from afar. Once on-site, its fairly easy to get a picture of how qualified the skipper is. But its also pretty difficult to "butt-in" and run their ship for them.

I guess that's my Monday rant. Can you tell I was denied on yesterday's wreck by an ill-qualified skipper?

 

[Wookie]

Damn. What do you dive on in a VTS?

I only throw a grapple with 30 feet of chain. When would you prefer a clump weight?

 

[packman]

I guess I'm lucky here in NC where all our boat captains do a good job of locating and hooking the wreck (at least the ones I've been out with). That said, however, they do run the gamut from tech friendly to tech hostile/ignorant.

 

[Cave Diver]

How many of you that routinely wreck dive have an "interview process" for a new captain/charter?

Are any arrangements made ahead of time for having a member of your team responsible for certain aspects of the trip. (i.e. deciding when/if to use a shotline, drifting or fixed deco, etc.)

 

[wb416]

I've mostly gone by word of mouth from other tech divers that have used the charters/skippers. In the times I didn't, the dives were "easy" enough that a bit of futzing around didn't make a huge difference.... unless the surface was bumpy, and then my stomach wasn't usually too happy.

 

[rjack321]

Damn. What do you dive on in a VTS?

I only throw a grapple with 30 feet of chain, and 285 feet of 1 1/8 poly 12 braid. When would you prefer a clump weight?

Many of our sites (>50% of the "big wrecks") are in VTS in some fashion. They are either:
on ferry routes,
in harbors,
in established traffic lanes or seperation zones, or
lastly in a non-traffic lane but VTS reporting for vessels >65ft and/or towing.

Many times it not necessary to report, but sometimes it is. Or to call VTS and discuss your plans with them to ensure they know what's going on. I have called them and voluntarily reported my 16ft RIB on occasion (foggy) to discuss reporting traffic they know about.

Puget Sound, Straight of Juan de Fuca and Georgia Strait areas are one big VTS jointly administered by US and Canada depending on where you are. The entire Puget Sound has radar coverage and alot of it has camera coverage as well. So anywhere off the immediate shoreline can get into their jurisdiction. Its a judgement call on what, when and how to discuss situations with them.


We use a clump of soft weight for the more well preserved freshwater wrecks. At low current sites (fresh or salt) we can just use a heavy shot. Our vis can be dreadful (5ft yesterday for instance) and divers searching wastes alot of BT. So I tighten up the shot line to be just a little longer than the water depth (5-10% longer). I can then go over the shot multiple times from multiple directions to confirm its "on it". Some of our operators don't do this, don't understand, don't drive in a straight line etc etc.

I guess what maximally frustrating is our best charter operator just went out of business He couldn't do BC but he was good and if the conditions allowed it you had a good chance of getting on the wreck.

 

[rjack321]

How many of you that routinely wreck dive have an "interview process" for a new captain/charter?

As much as I would like to think this would help...

I would have never thought asking to see 240 to 180ft on a depth sounder would be an issue. Or similar depth range, just zoom in on the bottom and don't try to represent 240ft of water on a 6" high screen with little automatic fish symbols suggesting a harder target than reality. Yesterday's operator didn't know how to zoom his sounder. Expensive lesson learned on my part.

Are any arrangements made ahead of time for having a member of your team responsible for certain aspects of the trip. (i.e. deciding when/if to use a shotline, drifting or fixed deco, etc.)

That seems to be me. And yes I arrange ahead of time. In yesterday's situation the operator and some of the other divers on the charter went out and took 3 hrs to "find it" the day ahead (its close to the marina). But they didn't really find it as we learned when we hit the mud at 230ft in 5ft vis. We searched for 15mins before bailing. Me and my 2 buddies were the only divers to even get down to search.

 

[JS1scuba]

Greetings,

I have not posted on SB in a long time, but was invited to come see this new section so this may as well be a place I jump in.


If you will be using dive operators that are NOT wreck divers or technical divers you will need to have some clear discussions as to their capabilities and the capabilities of their crew.

The #1 question I ask the captain when looking at a new boat is:

"Do you have crew that is capable of doing these dives and will you have them on board to do the tie in properly or do I have to bring my own crew?"

For me if the boat does not have crew I have to bring my own. I have a few guys around the country that I bring in as crew when a boat does not have what we need. BUT that does add to the cost of some of the operations.

The # 2 question is: "Do you have all the equipment, electronics, and ground tackle necessary for setting up these kinds of dives?" Grapnel hooks, multiple sets of anchor rode, shot lines, tuna-balls, drop weights, etc. If they don't have that stuff then they are not set up for deep dives or major wreck diving.


The # 3 question is "How many times have you been to this site?" If they dive it all the time then we expect they are set up for it. If they have not then we need to plan some additional time to locate and do the tie in. I expect that a set up is about 4 hours for a site they have not been to before. That may be long for some but I don't like dropping crew on a site and searching in the dark.

The # 4 question is "What else is in the area we can dive if you cant get us on the site we want to go to?" I like a back up plan.

The # 5 question is " Once we are tied in how many hours do we have on site before you want to leave" My minimum is 5 hours for a tech dive. That allows us to rotate teams and for an early team have an op for a 2nd dive.

In some respects having been crewing boats for 20 years and running big dive expeditions gives me a different level of expectation of a vessel than some. Safety for me is paramount and a dive boat that is not set up properly (for this kind of diving) can in some respects be a hindrance to the dive.

Also, your divers need to have a level of respect for the dive operator. It may be your charter but it's the captain's boat. He makes all final decisions. Most times I will side with the captain OR I will suggest to a captain to scrub a dive if after we make attempts to get on fail. Tech Divers need to understand that big wreck diving is NOT a guarantee. They may spend the entire day out there doing nothing because the site can't be found (searching new spots) or conditions make it too dangerous to get on. That's the price of exploration.

I run a workshop for divers who want to learn how to do this stuff. We did one last year in San Diego where divers learn about electronics, pattern searching, how to do tie-ins, shot lines, boat operations. It's an informal program but it's a LOT of fun.

Hope this gives you some different perspectives.

Cheers

 

[rjack321]

There isn't a single charter operator north of Portland who has a mate to "tie-in". In fact there isn't a single wreck where the vessel is tied in by a mate, crew or client as part of the dive setup at all. Possibly in Alaska I have only been diving there once. Sometimes there is a semipermanent buoy on a few of the wrecks. The Black Dragon (160ft) had one at one time, and the Diamond Knot (130ft) may have one seasonally. The fake "wrecks" up in BC have them but they aren't at technical depths. Those buoys are maintained & replaced by the charters running to them but are open to anyone.

On the real meal dives, like the Multnomah (270ft), the SS Governor (240ft), the Admiral Sampson (320ft), and the Bunker Hill (280ft) there is no way you get 5 hours. You have about 10mins once the current goes slack to splash (not for the Multnomah but the other 3).

In salt water, hooking the wreck is the job of the divers in coordination with the skipper. Once the wreck is hooked you wait for slack. When the buoy goes slack we have <15mins to splash, 1 group or team per slack. You can't have SMBs everywhere in a VTS zone so you can't run a boat of 12 out here. 2x groups of 3 is max. The best way to dive is with 3 divers, 2 safety divers geared up and crewing, and the skipper (assuming a competent one) on a 6 pack boat. More divers are not an asset.

The OC divers generally scooter nowadays. And either navigate back to the upline or ascend and shoot a bag. The CCR guys typically use a "deco trapeze" with metal bars at 12,22,32,42,52,62,72ft. They may or may not scooter. They detach the trapeze and it floats free for the deco with all the divers under the trapeze's buoys. You can't ascend up the grapple line, its quite simply impossible at these sites.

In freshwater we shot the wrecks. I use about 8lbs of old soft ankle weights on a 300ft line. I have a stuff sack to put the extra line in so make it ~5 or 10% longer than water depth. Despite being "on the wreck" divers still typically have to run line to find it. This is a function of the total lack of ambient light at more than about 70ft. And the poor bottom vis. And the cone shaped return given back by all depth sounders. The deeper the dive, the bigger the cone, the more likely the shot is 5 to 10ft away from the wreck.

Net, if you descend facing the wrong way you'll never see the wreck in Lake WA. Best vis I have ever seen in Lake Washington is about 8ft, worst was about 3ft. Its not all that uncommon for beginning tech dvers to actually descend into the soft silt because the water and the bottom look so similar. You have to use a compass to run a pattern with a spool or reel and positively connect the shot line with the wreck. Don't move the shot thinking you "know" which way to go, there is a destinct possibility you'll move it the wrong way. This is like doing a lost line drill in a cave, just a lost wreck. In Lake WA its fairly SOP to drap the spool or reel over the wreck and then visually navigate the ship or plane. The biggest is only 200ft minesweeper (x3 of these actually). Then back up the shot unless there's an emergency necessitating shooting bag.

You should dive up here Joel, its nothing like what you are accustomed to. Unfortunately there are scant few qualified operators left to go out with.

Wookie, FYI, I'm the guy who was asking about qualifications for the Ozark on the other board a few weeks ago. I think I'm going to stay close to home this fall so I hope that trip works out for everyone.

 

[JS1scuba]

Rjack, ok you did not indicate where the dives were (nor did I ask). In your situation YOU are the crew. Your set up with 3 in and 2 on standby/deck is an ideal situation. I've done many wrecks where we are "hit and run" with short tide windows.

Consider making some throwaway grapnels out of re-bar (make it 25lbs ) and use some lobster pot line (nylon) tie the line into the grapnel with about 5 feet of chain. The 4 knots in a row on the nylon about a foot above the chain link. The line is strong enough to hold the boat (heck we have held 50tons with it). You are now hooked in and the 25lbs will drop that polyline fast even in a current. The boat can lay on it for a long time. If your plan is to shoot a bag then your captain knows you are on way up and off the line. All he needs to do is motor up, have guy pull up all the slack till its flagpole, clear it off and put the boat in reverse and the line will snap, pull up the line and then drift along with you till you come up.

We have done the above and have also then lassoed the smbs and dropped a new deco line and deployed a sea anchor to slow the drift down.

From the sounds of it you are going to have to be the creative brains of these operations; since essentially you are chartering a bare-boat with a driver. 3 in and 2 on deck/safety. I assume you keep your safety guys in easy swim dry suits and they have M/S/F and a full set of rapid deploy gear to help if needed.

For safety guys we like to use single tankers. Typically with a single 120 filled with EAN 32 on a long hose AND they have a few additional deco bottles fully rigged ready to deploy. If they go in should a slate come up they bring the gas that's asked for. Rarely if ever have we had to deploy a guy deeper than 110 fsw. We like them to fly a computer set for air. It allows them to bounce in and out easily as no-stop. (we can make a different thread on support divers)

In these ops I would only have deck guys who are fully trained in CPR, Rescue, and First Aid O2 Admin. They also have to be strong enough to help get a stricken diver back on board. Unfortunatley this leaves out bringing a 100 lbs girl as the mate. (maybe a 3rd hand)

You have your hands full with these kinds of ops. I would love to come up and play and get my ass kicked. Let me know what you have on the schedule.

Cheers
JDS