Training on the calendar! Tips?

[TSandM]

I can remember similar conversations with others in the past. The fact is that, if you are a diver in North Central Florida, you are going to dive the springs. I'd much rather see someone take proper training to enter the overhead, than see a bored OW diver, trying to push his dive count up to some arbitrary level, decide to go in "a little ways". There are instructors whose judgment I totally trust to decide if someone is ready to dive in caves, and the man who has been involved in several hairy diver rescues is one of them. I'd cheerfully dive with the OP.

 

[lv2dive]

From reading a related thread on CDF I am ascertaining that Aotus may have had a different instructor than Edd for cavern and intro. But I also believe that anyone who partners/works with Edd, would have the same standards, and everything I have read on the other thread reinforces that, so I stand by everything I have said.

[

I typically agree with your posts and find myself puzzled in this thread. Generally speaking, would I prefer someone have a little more experience before going into the overhead? Yes of course. But there are few instructors I'd trust more than Edd to be able to judge whether someone is ready. And there are plenty of divers with hundreds of dives who don't understand the level of respect the overhead environment requires. One thing I do know, is Edd has no qualms about holding on to cards/certs until people have earned them. So again, my congrats go to the OP for earning his certs!

 

[boulderjohn]

From reading a related thread on CDF I am ascertaining that Aotus may have had a different instructor than Edd for cavern and intro. But I also believe that anyone who partners/works with Edd, would have the same standards, and everything I have read on the other thread reinforces that, so I stand by everything I have said.

For those who don't know, CDF means Cave Diver's Forum, a site like ScubaBoard except that it is totally dedicated to cave diving. In it, the OP made a journal, describing the activities of each day. Interestingly enough, none of the hard core cave divers reading that thread had anything but praise for the experience.

The OP also revealed that he had taken and passed the PADI cavern diving class earlier. That was not done with sidemount.

 

[scubastingray]

I think the difference is he had his number of dives displayed here beforehand. That board can be equally brutal given the chance.


On another note, what is the difference between overhead side mount and cavern? It sounds like you did a total of 3 cavern level classes. There is so much redundancy between intro and cavern that seems like a lot of repetition.

 

[kensuf]

I was diving at Ginnie yesterday and knew one team member of a two man team, I talked to them briefly as they were getting dressed to make a dive, both in widemount. We made a 90 minute dive and as we were exiting at the Park Bench they had just installed a jump onto the Bone Line.

The bottom was kicked up badly, the visibility was cut way more than in half. I did not see "why" & exactly "how" it happened I can only surmise one or both of them were flopping around on the bottom. At least one of the guys has been cave diving for a few years, no idea how many cave dives he has made.

I'm just quoting this so I can see the phrase widemount one more time.

---------- Post added August 29th, 2014 at 07:58 PM ----------

I can remember similar conversations with others in the past. The fact is that, if you are a diver in North Central Florida, you are going to dive the springs. I'd much rather see someone take proper training to enter the overhead, than see a bored OW diver, trying to push his dive count up to some arbitrary level, decide to go in "a little ways". There are instructors whose judgment I totally trust to decide if someone is ready to dive in caves, and the man who has been involved in several hairy diver rescues is one of them. I'd cheerfully dive with the OP.

This is spot on.

I teach OW at UF. We have college age kids, they're all super heroes. We are a 30 minute drive from Ginnie Springs. A 45 minute drive from Manatee.

I give a long spiel to my brand new OW divers that if they think they want to go diving in the springs regularly, they need a cavern course.

I make all of my advanced students write a response paper on the video "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die".

I have no qualms with someone living near the springs pursuing proper training without hundreds of dives under the belt. These guys already live here, and if they have the desire, they will be diving the caves trained or not. So steer them someplace where they can get the training and help mentor them, and quit acting like a holier than thou ass.

---------- Post added August 29th, 2014 at 08:05 PM ----------

And my final rant.. From his web page it sounds like he's done some decent training with certs in OW, AOW, PADI Cavern, PADI Rescue, and PADI nitrox (do they require dives?) all before he took sidemount, cavern, and intro.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I'm just quoting this so I can see the phrase widemount one more time.

It is not a phrase, its a word describing a gear configuration. Some call it sidemount.

 

[scubastingray]

<snip>
And my final rant.. From his web page it sounds like he's done some decent training with certs in OW, AOW, PADI Cavern, PADI Rescue, and PADI nitrox (do they require dives?) all before he took sidemount, cavern, and intro.

Well here's another question, just to add kindling to the fire. He removed it now, but he claimed to have what, 25-49 dives?
How many dives has he done that aren't training?

Training is great, don't get me wrong, but you certainly should have some time in between to work on skills and develop independently.

 

[bada3003]

If what kensuf is quoting is accurate, unlikely the OP had only 20+ dives under his belt. I was following the threads on SB and CDF, and he didn't seem to dispel the 20+ dive impression when it came up. I could be wrong but took him to be braggart. And seems can't take the heat. He's not a 16 year old kid. Since he volunteered the info, we know he's a PhD student, married, doing cave related paleontology work, which likely implies that a number of folks around him are accomplished cave divers/explorers. I would think the general concern that someone with 20+ dives should not be undertaking cave training would not be foreign to him. If I were his advisor, I would have drilled that into him many times over.

Anyhow, whatever the number of dives, the OP seems to be talented since Edd Sorenson/Michal Turek passed him. If there is one person in the diving community (never mind just cave diving) that deserves universal praise, it's Edd Sorenson. Implying that he would be contributing to degradation of training is off base. Reading the threads, I don't think anyone really did but I could be wrong.

As to anyone with just 20+ dives undertaking cave training, I don't think anyone, in general, agrees with that. Experience gained through diving does not have a short cut. Yes, you need good trim and buoyancy control but dealing with free flows, equipment malfunction, forgetfulness, OW awareness (never mind overhead conditions), is all acquired through experience. I think that was the concern expressed by some, until the unfortunate matter of Edd Sorenson being dragged into the discussion. I would be hesitant to dive with the OP but do accept that he had the skills to pass the intro cave class. Frankly, I didn't learn much from the threads.

And my final rant.. From his web page it sounds like he's done some decent training with certs in OW, AOW, PADI Cavern, PADI Rescue, and PADI nitrox (do they require dives?) all before he took sidemount, cavern, and intro.

 

[TracyN]

Edd and Michal would definitely not pass anyone if they couldn't do the skills but being able to do the skills well does not equate with having experience. Real world experience is nothing that can be taught. I would not feel comfortable going into an overhead environment with someone whose diving experience mostly consisted of training dives. Their mettle has not been tested yet. As realistic as classes can be there is always an instructor there to say drill over if things start going south. I remember my first real zero vis exit complete with line traps and it was a pucker moment. Black out mask drills can't really prepare you for that. There is no instructor or buddy to save you. You are on your own and you better be prepared to deal with it.

 

[flyingvisit]

Edd and Michal would definitely not pass anyone if they couldn't do the skills but being able to do the skills well does not equate with having experience. Real world experience is nothing that can be taught. I would not feel comfortable going into an overhead environment with someone whose diving experience mostly consisted of training dives. Their mettle has not been tested yet. As realistic as classes can be there is always an instructor there to say drill over if things start going south. I remember my first real zero vis exit complete with line traps and it was a pucker moment. Black out mask drills can't really prepare you for that. There is no instructor or buddy to save you. You are on your own and you better be prepared to deal with it.

Edd and Michal wouldn't pass anyone if they couldn't do the skills. That's the important line.

Real world experience can't be taught - but this guy is not asking to go past his training, just start cave diving to the level he is now trained to (Intro). He'll get the real world experience as he dives with people that apparently WILL feel comfortable going into an overhead environment with a newly trained and CERTIFIED cave diver - regardless of his prior experience to this point.

Apparently people are forgetting they were new divers once, not so long ago, and that they also did training dives and had little experience when moving into the caves at first. People said the same things about them, and they fought back and maybe proved people wrong over the years. I think this guy might too.

It's seems things in the past are a very different story a few years on with several hundred or thousand dives under your belt...