Training agencies safety and course integrity assurances.

[Genesis]

I can see were some who have been disillusioned in the past from the agencie's response to their concern may be disinclined to try again. I would encourage those able to look into this matter to take it to the highest level, sometimes this is the only way to get something done. At least to get to the heart of the matter. If this avenue is unsatisfactorily uncooperative then one can truely say the system is ______, at least from one's point of view.

On another note, I used OOA and out of sight seperation as two examples of what I consider gross negligence on the part of an instructor, not withstanding extenuating circumstances. Are these in fact major standard violations specifically sited by some agencies? Are there any such codes besides general guidelines?

Exactly, and yes, I've seen it, at least the second of your two.

Does violation of the NDLs for the table under which the class was being taught on a cert dive, when not driven by an emergency, count too? IMHO it should, and I've seen that one as well.

 

[Capnsnott]

As I posted earlier about the instructor who thought I still needed a night dive for AOW (page 2-3 of this thread).
I finished my dives this weekend. He has been instructing for a long time and as someone pointed out, it was a requirement by PADI, but no more.
He teaches because he likes diving and working with people. His class does five dives over two days, I'm not sure where the four dives came from on an earlier post. Maybe that is a PADI standard.

As for the bashing of agencies and others going on here. It's pretty sad. The group of people that should be working together to promote this sport are going at it with each other. It's a lot like the Land Use stuff I do dealing with OHV & 4x4 recreationists. Each group (ATV, motorcycles,4x4,mountain bikers...) goes at each others throats. Then they have no ability to save a trail or do major work on it, because they don't have the resources or people.

If there is as much problems as everyone is making it look like, then a united effort is needed to make some changes. If it's just agency bashing, then it needs to be stopped. There are as many opinions as there are people, the experiences of each person makes the opinion. Not all instructors are incompetent, just as not all are amazing. It boils down to personal opinion, and it appears that that is what has made this thread go to 7 pages. I sat here and read all of the posts, there are a lot of posts thad don't even have anything to do with the original question.

I guess what I'm saying is that before you post, think about your reasoning behind it. If it's my dad can beat up your dad kind of thing, have a cup of coffee or a beer and just calm down. I have learned a ton from this board, none of it is from a bashing post.

Greg Mackey
SSI OW, PADI AOW, next ??????? SSI, PADI, NAUI, IANTD, GUI, YMCA, who knows, depends on the instructor I like.

 

[Scuba]

Thank you all for enlightening me on this sensitive subject.

Some of the things I take away from this thread:

Training agencies monitor field instructors adherence to standards in regards to course content, safety regulations, and instructor conduct, almost exclusively through student questionnaires and complaints received. For the various reasons discussed in this thread I would consider this a rather weak quality assurance program, as opposed to a more robust, more expensive one.

Students, who generally happen to be the least knowledgeable about standards are asked to assess and report about standards.

No one here has explicitly said whether their agency has specific regulation codes regarding unacceptable violations. If they exist, they should be listed in the survey questionnaires and made public. If the agencies truly want to detect safety regulation violations and maintain standards - they must provide those assessing the standards with pertinent information. There is no other way!

I couldn’t help seeing the irony in the following quote. “NAUI will send out fake students if they have to ascertain if an instructor is legit or not.” As in due’s paying legit? Not standards meeting legit? Excuse my sarcasm, but this looks to me like a bill collector not a QA officer. By the way, what is the reason for the expulsion of instructors anyone has heard of.. Not paying due’s?

I realize asking instructors to insist on strict and fair violation codes and enforcement is like asking them to build their own noose. Even if doesn’t affect the majority, why take an unnecessary risk. Besides, this is not the job of an instructor but of a quality control officer. No doubt some agencies do a better job of quality assurance than others with this system. However this is difficult to evaluate based on public information available to a prospective student. If your agency is better than most in this respect make it a competitive issue.

There is much discussion in the dive industry about training standards. Although every little bit helps, by the looks of the standards monitoring systems, this is much ado about nothing. I suppose the current honor/questionnaire monitoring system could be said to adequately work. It could also be said to place an unknown (unnecessary?) number of students at risk, and to cheat others out of receiving adequate training.

The one thing most agree on is: It’s the instructor that matters.

I can clearly see why.

 

[neil]

I couldn’t help seeing the irony in the following quote. “NAUI will send out fake students if they have to ascertain if an instructor is legit or not.” As in due’s paying legit? Not standards meeting legit? Excuse my sarcasm, but this looks to me like a bill collector not a QA officer. By the way, what is the reason for the expulsion of instructors anyone has heard of.. Not paying due’s? (sic)

I've never heard of NAUI doing anything of the kind, and would be surprised if it's ever really happened. NAUI, as do all agencies, keep records of current instructors, so you can't really be serious with that comment! I think by "legit" Pete meant performing to standards.
Most of us aren't privy to the decisions that get instructors expelled, but what I've heard is that you have to do something unarguably unsafe with a student. Or hurt or kill one. Ratio and depth violations that even your "least knowledgable student" can attest to. Simple non-endangering standards violations will get you punished, but not usually expelled.

Neil

 

[The Chairman]

There has been at least one instance that I know of where a course director has taken a class to determine if standards were being met. It was my impression, that it was part of an investigatory process. I am not sure what the irony is in that... looks more like they actually care about their instructors being safe. As for dues... please. Why would you have someone take a class to collect dues?

Expulsion in NAUI has always been due to standards violations. Any instructor can elect to not pay their dues... they just can't apply for any c-cards for their students until they do that and have insurance too. But I guess it's easier just to slam all of the agencies instead of seeing the positive steps they take to insure Q&A.

 

[SA-Diver]

I would really love to see PADI do a quality check on some of the local LDS's training methods. Some of these are 5 star IDC's which turn out OW divers in a weekend of theory and pool sessions and 1 day with 4 short OW dives.
From 0 to OW in 3 days - a disaster waiting to happen.
Unfortunately PADI will more than likely never check on any of these, although they have recieved complaints about some of them.

 

[coberry7]

PADI requires that only two training dives be done per day during OW training. The exception being after the fourth dive the now certified diver can make an additional dive, such as a night dive.

Colin Berry

 

[Snowbear]

PADI requires that only two training dives be done per day during OW training.

I thought the standard was 3 max training dives in a day? This leaves room for a couple of fun dives on the 2nd day, if the instructor allows it....

 

[IndigoBlue]

I would really love to see PADI do a quality check on some of the local LDS's training methods. Some of these are 5 star IDC's which turn out OW divers in a weekend of theory and pool sessions and 1 day with 4 short OW dives.
From 0 to OW in 3 days - a disaster waiting to happen.
Unfortunately PADI will more than likely never check on any of these, although they have recieved complaints about some of them.

I have never seen a PADI store take less than 2 days to do 4 dives. Usually Saturday and Sunday of the same weekend.

 

[perpet1]

I have had some referrals pool/classroom trained by instructors who clearly do not have a clue. From all agencies.

Your point is well taken.

Unfortunately I know some lawyers, dentists, doctors, nurses, accountants and others who are in the same clueless group practicing their profession. It is everywhere .. not just in diving.

Goes to the old question..... What do the call the Doctor that finished last in their class? Answer: Doctor

Look at it another way. Half of the instructors out there are below average. This is not a slam on instructors but roughly speaking in a group, half will be above average, and half will be below average. Generally, there will be as many really good instructors as there are really bad instructors and the majority will fall right in the middle. There are some on this board that would have you believe there are a small handfull of good instrucotrs and the rest are worthless. This is simply not the case.

Pete