toxicity 02

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dutch-scuba-kid

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Alphen aan den Rijn, Netherlands
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Hey all,

somebody made me really confused the other day. Telling me that oxygen does NOT turn toxic at a pressure of 1,7 bar. I've always learned that it does... so what's the poop?

Ramon
 
dutch-scuba-kid:
somebody made me really confused the other day. Telling me that oxygen does NOT turn toxic at a pressure of 1,7 bar. I've always learned that it does... so what's the poop?
Oxygen Toxicity is a very strange beast. One day you might tox at 1.7 the next day you might not. The best thing to do is err on the side of caution.
 
dutch-scuba-kid:
Hey all,

somebody made me really confused the other day. Telling me that oxygen does NOT turn toxic at a pressure of 1,7 bar. I've always learned that it does... so what's the poop?

Ramon

For some it may turn toxic at a 1.6, and many breathe this at the 20 ft. stop, i do as well. I wouldent get to comfortable if, as cornfed said, you are ok at a 1.7 on a dive. That is when O2 will bite you. I would remain extremely cautious when you are above a 1.4 even on deco where the O2 may be 1.6. When you slack off or get to comfortable with high PO's it WILL hit you when you least expect it. Never underestimate the effects of high PO's
 
jaydee197:
For some it may turn toxic at a 1.6, and many breathe this at the 20 ft. stop, i do as well. I wouldent get to comfortable if, as cornfed said, you are ok at a 1.7 on a dive. That is when O2 will bite you. I would remain extremely cautious when you are above a 1.4 even on deco where the O2 may be 1.6. When you slack off or get to comfortable with high PO's it WILL hit you when you least expect it. Never underestimate the effects of high PO's

Let me clarify... I'm not saying 1.7 is safe. There is significant variation in how people react to O2. You can't say that diving a PP02 of 1.6 is completely safe and 1.7 is a death sentence. You could tox just as easily at 1.6 as you could at 1.7. In other words, err on the side of caution and keep your PP02 down. And by down I mean 1.4 or below because there isn't really a reason to dive 1.6 in the recreational realm.
 
cornfed:
Let me clarify... I'm not saying 1.7 is safe. There is significant variation in how people react to O2. You can't say that diving a PP02 of 1.6 is completely safe and 1.7 is a death sentence. You could tox just as easily at 1.6 as you could at 1.7. In other words, err on the side of caution and keep your PP02 down. And by down I mean 1.4 or below because there isn't really a reason to dive 1.6 in the recreational realm.

Heck, people have toxed at 1.4, too. Ask Spectre.
 
cornfed:
Let me clarify... I'm not saying 1.7 is safe. There is significant variation in how people react to O2. You can't say that diving a PP02 of 1.6 is completely safe and 1.7 is a death sentence. You could tox just as easily at 1.6 as you could at 1.7. In other words, err on the side of caution and keep your PP02 down. And by down I mean 1.4 or below because there isn't really a reason to dive 1.6 in the recreational realm.

Oh i know you werent saying that a 1.7 is safe. Some think it is. i personally would not recommend it to anyone.
 
O2 toxicity is a complex thing that cannot be rendered down to 'x' is safe and 'y' is dangerous. There are many factors including what the diver is doing, where they are, who they are, how they are on that day, how long they are on high PPO2, and other known and unkown.

For *most* sport divers CNS O2 tox is the main problem.
For other divers pulmonary O2 tox is a bigger concern.
Both need to be considered if you are diving any mix other than air.

Even 1.0 PPO2 can be a problem if you breath it long enough, and not just pulmonary O2 tox but eye problems and perhaps others.

When we start diving (or stepping up our level of diving) we learn the 'rules' and they help keep us alive while we learn the background and gain the experience to know when we can bend or break the 'rules' with a acceptable level of risk.

The more we learn about this stuff, the more we find that there is to learn.
 
Hey people... Thanks for replying. The guy who confused me a bit, also clarified it for me too. And I think it's very usefull for others to read too. It's a lot of text, so if you're up for it. Enjoy. :p Just to make it clear. I did NOT write this text, it's Voop's... I hope he doesn't mind I'm posting it. I just really find it worth reading. Enjoy!

oxtox is a bad thing. However there are not really any absolutes as to when it becomes toxic. As a matter of fact, there are two different toxicities, which can incur: pulmonary tox, which is due to long term exposures. That rarely happen in diving since it requires 6-12h or exposure to high PPO2. The other tox is CNS toxicity (central nervous system). This CNS-tox incurs as a function of O2PP exposure and time. I.e. it may be "safe" to breath O2 at a PP=1.4 for x min, but if you breath O2 at a PP=1.4 for x+x min, you may get O2tox.

So as you can see, it's not a hard and fast rule that PPO2>1.6 -> "danger". It is more of a pragmatic observation that "staying below a PPO2 1.6, and the risk of O2tox is sufficiently low to be acceptable.

A diver can be very "tolerant" against O2tox on one day, while on another day be very suceptible to an O2tox "hit". It's different if you're "staying still" or if you are exerting yourself. It's different if you breath in a wet or dru environment: you risk a "hit" at lower PPO2 in water than in a chamber. A "hit" under water can be fatal: convulsions. While these are not dangerous, and disappear after a while, they do cause spasms,contractions etc in the face - often causing the epiglottis to close and cause you to spit out your reg. When you recover from the convulsions (a minute or so), the reflex is to breath -- and without the reg, you'll get water -> drowning. If your buddy tries to make you ascent when convulsing, then you may do so with your epiglottis closed -- which implies pulmonary barotrauma. Remember: never hold your breath. Thus, if your buddy is convulsing, you should (i) maintain him at current depth (ii) hold your octopus against his mouth while pressing the purge button. That way his first breath after convulsions will be air, not water.

O2 tox is, like dec theory, not entirely understood yet. We have models which work "mostly". For deco theory, that is the gas-diffusion model and for O2 tox, it is the "CNS clock". Used conservatively, and one is safe. However they are models, and have no direct correspondance with the human physiology. Occationally, someone discovers more complete models.

A group of divers, such as those from WKPP, routinely do dives which according to the "traditional" models are not safe. It's not because these divers are "supermen", but because they've discovered a different model which, in their situations, better model their physiology and so on. Still, what they do are also just develop new models and test them. Noone really knows the complete details of CNS tox and deco yet.

So to answer your question: what happens if you go to 1.7 bar PPO2? Well, what happens is that you bring yourself closer to the area where a risk of a CNS O2 tox hit is likely. You may convulse -- or you may not. I've done up to 4 bar PPO2 without any problems -- in a chamber (where potential convulsions are uncomfortable, but not fatal). The chamber operator told me, that this was fairly standard for hyperbaric therapy. I would not cross the 1.4bar PPO2 limit in the working part of my diving. Currently, I switch to 100%O2 at the end of my 9m deco stop, when I am about to head up to my deco stop at 6m. This is, to me, reasonable since I am on the way up, and am not exerting myself: remember, there's air in the lungs, and the first few breaths of O2 will be dilluted by that -- and I will be arriving at 6m (1.6 bar) after just a few breaths. I do not reccomend that procedure to anyone, but it is what I do when I dive for myself.

(again... this is info comes from Voop, not me) :54:
 
This Divers Alert Network article is good review of oxygen toxicity.

A good example of the large day-to-day variations in CNS oxtox susceptibility is the story in the article about the British diver who repeatedly made dives to 3.1ata ppO2:
DAN Article:
One stalwart individual made dives twice a week for over three months on exactly the same dive profile (70 feet / 21 meters, 65°F / 18°C, at rest, 100-percent oxygen) until signs of oxygen toxicity developed (again, a notable contribution to the war effort!). His symptom onset time was random and ranged from seven minutes to 148 minutes!
 
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