Toronto: Hydrogen taxis?

[chip104]

Hey OFWFs,

My friend is doing a research project and it involves a company called Hydrogen Village.

Below you will find a brief outline of what our project is about. Maybe some of you would like to participate in a survey so they can get a general idea of the public perception.
http://hydrogentaxi.hopto.org

It only takes a few minutes (did it in 2 mins).

Feel free to forward this e-mail to anyone you know that either lives, works, or spends some of their free time in the downtown core.

Project Outline:

Poor air quality is a growing problem in Toronto. The Hydrogen Village is initiating a pilot project to introduce a small fleet of hydrogen-powered taxis to service the downtown core. The fleet of taxis will be unlike any other on the road today. These taxis will have zero-emissions, which will not contribute to air pollution in the city. The purpose of this survey is to gauge the public’s interest in this pilot project. By participating in this survey, you are helping the Hydrogen Village move forward on this initiative. As an incentive, we will enter your name into a draw for a $100 Chapters Indigo gift card.



I figured it's an interesting idea.

 

[Groundhog246]

The only problem with the hydrogen "zero emissions" theory, is the energy used to create the hydrogen for fuel. IF, we could do it using hydro electric or nuclear, then there's a saving, or maybe wind power, but since we are already short on electric power and the overall efficiency to burn other fuels to create electricity to create the hydrogen to fuel the vehicle is so low, that you end up creating more pollution than just burning the fuel directly in the vehicle. The cleanest fuel we have to create electricity is natural gas and you burn nearly double using the natural gas to create the hydrogen than you would burn just using natural gas powered vehicles. The amount of pollution created burning coal is even worse. Using battery powered electric vehicles is also more efficient (you get more power to the wheels per KWH used than you do using the power to create hydrogen) and in an accident, I'd rather hit a bunch of batteries than a compressed hydrogen cylinder.

 

[chip104]

The only problem with the hydrogen "zero emissions" theory, is the energy used to create the hydrogen for fuel. IF, we could do it using hydro electric or nuclear, then there's a saving, or maybe wind power, but since we are already short on electric power and the overall efficiency to burn other fuels to create electricity to create the hydrogen to fuel the vehicle is so low, that you end up creating more pollution than just burning the fuel directly in the vehicle. The cleanest fuel we have to create electricity is natural gas and you burn nearly double using the natural gas to create the hydrogen than you would burn just using natural gas powered vehicles. The amount of pollution created burning coal is even worse. Using battery powered electric vehicles is also more efficient (you get more power to the wheels per KWH used than you do using the power to create hydrogen) and in an accident, I'd rather hit a bunch of batteries than a compressed hydrogen cylinder.

nice point. Go fill out the survey and tell them this. I heard that this is a client with a lot of money to invest in more environmentally sound ideas.

 

[boney]

Actually theres a company out in Isreal that has some cool technology in terms of hydrogen engines.... check it out...

http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/231005_tech.htm

 

[veggiedog]

Not all hydrogen storage is done via HP tanks. They also have metal hydride tanks that result in significantly less dangerous storage (not HP, off gassing is limited to a specific rate, very dense storage, ...).

Is your data regarding the efficiences involved in producing hydrogen to using it based on the target engine being an internal combustion engine? Would the higher efficiency of a fuel cell provide a net gain (if you know)?

I'm just curious, as hydrogen has many advantages for providing clean mobile power, and, as you pointed out, it can be produced from environmentally clean sources.

 

[chip104]

Actually theres a company out in Isreal that has some cool technology in terms of hydrogen engines.... check it out...

http://www.isracast.com/tech_news/231005_tech.htm

thanks for the link. I like how it says: "Illustration photo – the car in this image is not related to the story." underneath the nice looking car.

 

[Groundhog246]

Is your data regarding the efficiencies involved in producing hydrogen to using it based on the target engine being an internal combustion engine? Would the higher efficiency of a fuel cell provide a net gain (if you know)?

No. Every time you convert energy from one form to another you waste some. Some conversions are more wasteful than others. Burning gasoline in our car is not terribly efficient. I don't have the figures to hand, but if I recall the average car engine actually makes use of about 30% of the energy available in the gas. Much is wasted as heat. I recall an experiment on PEI a few years back. They built a new school and equipped it with diesel generators. Diesel fuel is #2 fuel oil, same as many use in their furnace. The diesels were used to run electric generators to provide power for the school and the 'waste' heat from the diesels was used to heat the school. Burning the fuel in a diesel engine created just as many btu per gallon as burning in a conventional boiler, so in the winter, when heat was required, they got nearly free electric power (there's more maintenance required for a diesel engine than a boiler, so there's was some additional cost). I moved away before I heard any conclusions to the experiment. I know that PEI also has a very high temperature incinerator for waste disposal, the high temp and scrubbers mean very little pollution from the burning and the heat is used to heat several buildings, including QEH (hospital).

I like the fuel cell idea in general, although many of the ones being worked on use propane or natural gas for their 'hydrogen' source. But your back to an electric car again. So you generate electricity, use that energy to produce hydrogen, then use that hydrogen to create electricity to create motive energy, rather than burning the hydrogen in an engine to create motive energy. Still wasting a lot of energy on the conversions. Why not just generate the electricity, charge batteries (which are not 100% either, but there are some pretty efficient ones available) and build electric cars. They're quiet, efficient (there's no idle, if you are not moving, you are not consuming energy, unlike any internal combustin engine) and we have the technology. One of the biggest hurdles with battery power is the time required to charge them. For something like a fleet of taxis, that could be dealt with (and has been in fleets of electric vehicles) by making easy to swap battery modules. Pull into the garage, unload the discharged batteries, lood up the new ones and you can be back on the road in a couple of minutes.

 

[veggiedog]

Selfishly, my interest is in powering a sailboat. I can discard the 350lb motor in my 30' sailboat, install 5Kw of hydrogen based fuel cells (there are hydrogen based fuel cells currently on the market (1Kw - 2 kw)) to drive a 5hp electric motor. Sailing on the lake involves infrequent motor usage (getting in and out of the marina, picking up anchor, ...), and I would benefit from the fuel cells electric output to power my electric needs (ac, computer, microwave,...approximately 1Kw-1.5Kw continuous). For that to be practical, hydrogen needs to be more readily available (e.g. an infrastructure to power cars).

Lightweight, non-hydrogen-direct based fuel cells are not available in the 1Kw-5Kw range that I could locate.

Batteries have their own evils (I have 225lbs of them on my boat).

 

[Groundhog246]

Something like this http://www.solomontechnologies.com/news/pdf/Sail_Jan05.pdf I've been watching Solomon's Electric Wheel for quite a while now. They had a very successful Catalina prototype with the diesel replaced with an electric wheel, battery bank, small diesel generator and solar panels.
I see the article mentions a methanol powered fuel cell that is (or at least was at the time of the article) available.

I have similar interest, but have been caught with no wind and 5 hours motoring, so need something a little more than just in and out of the harbour.

 

[veggiedog]

The fuel cell in the Annapolis boatshow that "is all the talk" is a bunch of hype IMHO. It is the size of a battery and puts out only a trickle of power (100A per day, or about 50Watts continous). More of a backup power supply than a useable fuel cell if you plan on running an air conditioner or a microwave for more than a couple of minutes, never mind an electric motor.

You can buy hydrogen fuel cells that can put out 1Kw, and they go for $3500 used, up to $7K new. Much more reasonable than $3500 for the maxpower methanol cell.