Took a ride up from 80'

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What I do not understand is why the third diver needed to make a safety stop for a dive that was aborted 5 to 6 minutes after its start?

The OP mentioned - We made our descent to the 85’ platform without any problems.

Personally anything over 40 feet - I always make a safety stop unless it is a shore dive where I follow the bottom contour and essentially gives me the same effect.
 
People sitting at home seem to have a skewed sense of how long it takes for everything to turn into sh**. All these suggestions to turn this or that on or off, or do some other thing are all just distractions that will achieve nothing except increase the chance of death or injury.

Hey divemaster i can tell you from experience once things go south they go south real fast and people panic and forget the dive plan. It is a good thing the student did not bolt to the surface, However Air share back to the ascent line before signaling to go up, you could have done differently.

You deserve a lot of credits for monitoring for DCS, i would have also called DAN and follow up with student with 12 and 24 hours increments after the dive. Those slow releasing tissues just love nitrogen.
 
It makes perfect sense. When diver needs help, it's really hard to know exactly what the complete problem is within a few seconds. Handing a supposedly OOA diver a pony, for example, and waving goodbye, is just supplying an opportunity to have the problem re-occur.

An OW diver asking for an air share might indicate out-of-air, bad gas, hard-breathing reg, bad reg, general anxiety, bad skills or some other problem.

Sharing air, besides giving the other diver known-good breathing gas, also gives you physical control of the situation and the ability to do a safe ascent to the surface, and then figure out what the problem is, on the surface, where there are now two of you. A diver doing a solo emergency ascent is taking a big risk once on the surface. A large percentage of fatalities start this way.

A diver who wants an air share has essentially said "Something bad is happening that I can't handle alone and need your help", and an air share means you're now physically connected. Once things calm down, you can safely end the dive for both of you.

flots.
I agree with your points, but I think we have a different starting point. There is no indication of (initial) panic or a request for the alternate. I assume the freeflow diver would (should) switch to their own alternate first. That is why we have it (right?). Maybe the close contact of the shared reg caused the real panic?

So I am looking for additional reasons why the freeflow student ended up on the OP instructor's alternate. The OP did not provide any info except that they gave their alternate "as a first action". Seems to me this is not the best choice. But I have no idea what instructors are taught to do.

"We had just started our swim when one of the students tapped me to get my attention. His primary regulator was starting to free flow. I gave him my primary regulator, and used my secondary." WHY? Why did the student not use their own alternate?

No mention of the student in a panic. Why the donate? Seems like a bad first decision. Unless it is "the rules" for instructors?

As already indicated, I experienced a similar initial situation. My divebuddy simply switched to her alternate. No need for buddy breathing. Maybe we did it wrong?

Thoughts?
 
The OP mentioned - We made our descent to the 85’ platform without any problems.

Personally anything over 40 feet - I always make a safety stop unless it is a shore dive where I follow the bottom contour and essentially gives me the same effect.

My point is that @ 85 feet, it takes 25 minutes to get to saturation. Only 5 minutes at this depth, would leave you in a group B. No safety stop required provided that you made a slow ascent. I am not sure that a safety stop is needed in this case, especially if you have to do it as a solo diver, your two companions beeing at the surface ;)
 
No safety stop required provided that you made a slow ascent. ;)

Understood your position - if I have enough gas in the tank - I do safety stops.:D If it was an emergency situation I would of course abort the safety stop - otherwise it is a safety stop for me. Meet you at the top after a 3 min stop @ 20 feet. But my buddies would know this before we hit the water.
 
I agree with your points, but I think we have a different starting point. There is no indication of (initial) panic or a request for the alternate. I assume the freeflow diver would (should) switch to their own alternate first.

. . .

That is why we have it (right?). Maybe the close contact of the shared reg caused the real panic?

. . .

Thoughts?

There's no point in switching to an alternate regulator on a freeflow. All that does is allow the freeflow to continue, but now you're sucking down the tank faster (gas lost from the freeflow plus gas lost from breathing).

However both of these are still irrelevant, since it takes very little time for a freeflow to lose all the air in the tank. And the amount of time you have left is an unknown, which I also don't like.

There's no advantage to putting the diver on either of their own regs because they both will soon stop working anyway. I'd much rather start an air share while everybody is still happy and breathing, instead of halfway through an ascent when the victim tries to breathe and gets nothing.

The best time to stop everything from turning into a sh**-storm is when you can see the clouds coming but it's not raining yet.

flots.

PS. A lot of this depends on who the victim is. I have a few buddies who have their skills nailed and a very high panic threshold. In that case, there are all sorts of things we could try, including sharing air and trying to actually fix the regulator.

However if I'm in a class, or leading a dive or run across a random diver on vacation, we're sharing air and we're going up.
 
My first question would be why didn't "victim" use his own secondary and then you give a try to fix the freeflow. If it continues to freeflow, then share air, and ascend together. My experience at dumping tanks found that it takes a while to dump a full tank at the beginning of a dive. At least , long enough to do a couple quick tries to fix free flow.
 
Understood your position - if I have enough gas in the tank - I do safety stops.:D If it was an emergency situation I would of course abort the safety stop - otherwise it is a safety stop for me. Meet you at the top after a 3 min stop @ 20 feet. But my buddies would know this before we hit the water.

So we are in agreement. ;). Like you I do not want to go to the surface with plenty of air. But alone at a safety stop while you two buddies might have needed your help :blinking:
 
How about this lets thread on the side of safety, we can crunch all the numbers we want and say no safety stop is required. How about not making a third victim? We do not know the physiology of the diver, We are not doctors, No one can truly guarantee or say by this guy missing his stop he wont get bent or experience some kind of DCS. Diving is theoretical

At 85 feet - you just see the divemaster and your buddy shot to the surface, its more than obvious that these divers are still in training, and most of the dive physics that is being talked about they have not learned it as yet. The student followed his dive plan to ascend and do the safety stop and meet back at the surface.

The third thing i want to point out is PANIC - the situation never warrant a true emergency, but there was panic involved and a panic diver is Unpredictable. i know in some agencies deep diving (below 60feet) warrants a pony bottle or some independent redundant system. This is in most standards and procedures.
 
I have an old Doctor friend who happens to be an expert in hyperbaric medicine, especially as it pertains to sport divers (although his training was in the Navy) and he spent much of his career studying and treating rec. diver accident victims. One of his more memorable lines is, "We can fix bent, we can't fix dead."

Back in the day, before silent bubbles and dive computers were invented, we had a way of amusing ourselves during a mundane dive. We'd swim down maybe 60 or 70 feet, hang on to a giant rock, inflate our "life-vests" (And I was using a Fenzy at the time, which has, I think, about 12,000 pounds lift, just slightly less than my 20' Zodiac) and let go. We would come rocketing to the surface, clearing the water to our waists. We were breathing REALLY fast on the way up, but it was pretty amusing. Nobody ever got bent or embolized or anything of the sort. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is a good idea, but my point is that this whole ascent speed thing really only matters when you're already somewhat bubbled up. As long as there is no air being trapped anyplace, nobody is going to burst anything either. (And just to be clear, we were young, stupid and perhaps a titch reckless, and I am NOT suggesting that this, in hindsight, was a great idea.)

In this case, you were minutes into a dive, so everyone had lots of air and no nitrogen loading to speak of. You describe the free-flow as fairly minor, so I think simply calling the dive and herding the two students up would have been an entirely appropriate response, perhaps with a firm grip on the dude, just in case he became overly enthusiastic in his with to reach the surface.

Having said that, I wee freeze-up can turn into a MOAFU (Mudder Of All Freeze-Ups) pretty quickly, potentially... so your response was also entirely appropriate.

Well, all except the worrying about the SBA (Screaming Buoyant Ascent). 'Cause if you had done anything wrong while you were "in transit", then you probably wouldn't be here talking about it!

How about this lets thread on the side of safety, we can crunch all the numbers we want and say no safety stop is required. How about not making a third victim? We do not know the physiology of the diver, We are not doctors, No one can truly guarantee or say by this guy missing his stop he wont get bent or experience some kind of DCS. Diving is theoretical

I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that I think we can guarantee that. At 6 minutes into a dive and only a few minutes actually at 85', I think we can say with a high degree of certainty that the risk of DCS is statistically zero, unless the third guy is a freak of nature. Conversely, this is a teaching situation and the OP, who is the Instructor, has the responsibility for the well-being of all of his students, not just the guy with the fizzy reg. If the second student had stopped to do a safety stop, that's three minutes where he is out of sight of the instructor, and on his own. (And I get the impression that this was the guy with only 15 dives). That's exactly how an "interesting" dive becomes a tragic one... A novice diver, "abandoned" by his Instructor and left alone.

In this situation, the worst thing that might have happened is that all three of them would take a minor hit... which would be easily treated. In your preferred situation, the third guy (with a handful of dives) loses control of his buoyancy, sinks, spooks himself, freaks, panics and rockets toward the surface embolizing along the way. And now we're back to where we started: You can fix bent. You can't fix dead.

So I am going to respectfully disagree with you WF21. The OPs reaction was to keep his little guppies together and get them to the surface. He did that, and that was the right thing to do. There were no "victims" of any sort in this dive... Just a diver or three who are a little wiser than they were when they entered the water.
 
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