To those considering an OW class...

[waterpirate]

WOW!!!
This thread has turned into a very predictable pattern. I am so tired of any discussion about training standards, and or agencys becoming the same old beef.
I long for the day when people are allowed to think for themselves, make informed decisions about the direction their diving will take, and seek out MENTORING from more experienced divers.
It does not have to be formal, it does not have a shiny plastic card, it does not cost money.
It does take time. The thing most people do not have and are unwilling to invest. Becoming a competant diver is achieved through repitition, and skills development, not everyone learns the same or has the same ability to grasp concepts, so no matter what the training regimen, or duration, or the agency, or the cost, you simply can not make great divers out of the masses.
DIR standards are great for DIR people, But not everyone wants to be part of a cohesive team unit. If that is the direction you want to go, I urge you to immediately go to the nearest DIR recruiting station and sign up.
If you desire some other form of training, I urge you to seek it out, find out who is doing it in your area, and get some more training from them.
We all need to learn to exist together, and trying to assimilate everyone into any box, any agency, and expecting the same results in the end is unrealistic, and I don't think we will get better divers for our efforts.
What we will get is a third faction to add into any thread discussion that will ultimately end the same. "we are better and you are not"
just my .02

Eric

 

[TheRedHead]

I long for the day when people are allowed to think for themselves, make informed decisions about the direction their diving will take, and seek out MENTORING from more experienced divers.

I was totally clueless about any of this when I signed up for OW class and although I haven't waded through every post in this thread, I think the point is to change the standards because you really can't make an informed decision if you don't know anything about it.

OTH, an instructor at my LDS said that certification agencies were nothing but booksellers and that diving was taught by instructors. Not a PADI shop, of course.

 

[Doubles]

Is there a mod in the house???? 33 pages of posts to try and read - wow...maybe we should close this one and start a new if both sides of the fence want to continue to try and convince each other

 

[waterpirate]

The point of my message is this, no matter what agency you start with, what you do or do not know before hand is irrellavent. After you have the basic knowledge given to you by someone, it is is up to the individual to progress or digress based on his or her direction. The agency's we have now do a good job of giving people the OW card and the rest is up to them no matter who started them on the path.
A lot of people will remain vacation lemmings, and on vacation on guided dives, what is the harm?
The harm comes when they do not understand that all diving is not a guided tour. Shiny cards do nothing to speak to your level of experience, or comfort in the water. The agencys in place now give a good exposure through their other cards to educate the diver that more comprehensive training and MENTORING is needed by more experienced divers in the area that you chose to dive in.
But again you can not buy experience or hasten your journey by any other means than dives completed safely, and progression with direction from someone with more experience than you.
P.S.
Every other sport and even life has "coaches". Why is the diving world so against this basic tenant?
Eric

 

[MikeFerrara]

The point of my message is this, no matter what agency you start with, what you do or do not know before hand is irrellavent. After you have the basic knowledge given to you by someone, it is is up to the individual to progress or digress based on his or her direction. The agency's we have now do a good job of giving people the OW card and the rest is up to them no matter who started them on the path.
A lot of people will remain vacation lemmings, and on vacation on guided dives, what is the harm?
The harm comes when they do not understand that all diving is not a guided tour. Shiny cards do nothing to speak to your level of experience, or comfort in the water. The agencys in place now give a good exposure through their other cards to educate the diver that more comprehensive training and MENTORING is needed by more experienced divers in the area that you chose to dive in.
But again you can not buy experience or hasten your journey by any other means than dives completed safely, and progression with direction from someone with more experience than you.
P.S.
Every other sport and even life has "coaches". Why is the diving world so against this basic tenant?
Eric

On one hand it sounds like you are saying that the agencies do a good job but on the other hand you seem top be saying that they aren't. It's hard to tell just what you're saying.

Personally, I don't think that the agencies do a good job of anything at all. Thankfully, the day when we a are allowed to think for ourselves is here and that's what I think.

 

[Thalassamania]

The point of my message is this, no matter what agency you start with, what you do or do not know before hand is irrellavent. After you have the basic knowledge given to you by someone, it is is up to the individual to progress or digress based on his or her direction. The agency's we have now do a good job of giving people the OW card and the rest is up to them no matter who started them on the path.

What if their start is a systematic lie? Who's fault is that, the liar or the victim?

 

[jbd]

P.S.
Every other sport and even life has "coaches". Why is the diving world so against this basic tenant?
Eric

The only coaches I know that work for free are involved in youth sports and activities as volunteers. An adult that has a life coach or personal trainer etc, etc, pays for that persons services.

I agree that that people need to get out and do some diving to gain experience and improve or refine their actual diving skills. I also agree that this will be greatly enhanced if one can dive with someone who will act as a mentor. But I also feel that if one is going to dive with experienced people then the the newcomer should bring something to table to make it "worthwhile" to the more experienced diver(s). That something is not money either--its a certain baseline of skill that allows for a reasonable dive or set of dives. For example, most all newly minted divers or infrequent divers will have high air consumption rates. I don't mind that if the that is based on some level of anxiety or excitement or lack of experience. What I don't like is when that high consumption rate is based on failing arms and legs, no baseline concept of how to use the BC and all manner of "equipment" issues. If I'm going to spend $100 to $150 to do a couple of dives one day then I expect to dive. The dives need not be anything spectacular---just enjoyable.

If the plan is to do a 20 ft dive around the quarry for 40 minutes then that should be fairly close to what happens. While I can get to 20 feet and stay there with ease the new/inexperienced/infrequent diver will most likely have some trouble and it would be reasonable to expect that they will move up and down in the water column by as much as 5 or 6 feet. The dive may have been planned for 40 minutes but due to high SAC it may only last 25 minutes. I'm OK with that. We can talk about it during the surface interval and most likely we will see improvement.

Too often though the situation turns out to be repeated trips to the surface either intentional or unintentional. All manner of excuses why this or that doesn't work etc, etc, etc. When you try to talk to the person during the surface interval you get all this stuff about how wonderful their instructor was and how they should stick with what they know etc, etc, etc.

 

[TSandM]

jbd, I'm sorry that's been your experience with novices. I guess I've been lucky. I've tried to escort a couple of new divers with really execrable skills -- One I told, after 30 minutes of being unable to get him close enough to neutral to be able to swim underwater AT ALL, that he should go take a refresher course, which he eventually did. But otherwise, we've been able to make progress, and everybody (without exception) has had a good attitude about wanting to improve.

I think mentoring is both necessary and wonderful in the diving world. I don't think many of us could afford to pay an instructor to do the number of dives with us that it takes to reach solid competency in basic skills. (I certainly couldn't!) Generous experienced divers with the patience to do some guiding are a critical component of the process. Of course, it's nicer for the mentor if the student comes with some basic skills (it's hard to dive if the novice can't swim underwater ).

 

[DrSteve]

Generous experienced divers with the patience to do some guiding are a critical component of the process. Of course, it's nicer for the mentor if the student comes with some basic skills (it's hard to dive if the novice can't swim underwater ).

And that's how I improved by a particularly generous friend (Mike S...if you read this, kudos to you). There was perhaps one difference between myself and others of my ilk...I am a water baby and have been at home in and under the water for as long as I can remember, I was also confident in my skills and in my limits. I knew what I didn't know and wasn't happy with and worked on it. I was also open to advice. Key requirements for any mentor-mentee situation.

 

[jbd]

Lynne,
I must apologize. Not all my experiences with new/inexperienced/infrequent divers have been "bad". The newest divers I ever dove "with" was in Cozumel. Two teenage boys(14 or 15 years of age) If I remember correctly they had not much more than a few post certification dives. I expected that the drift dives we were going to do would be more than they were ready for. It only took moments into the dive to realize that they were going to do just fine. Good control of bouyancy, good buddy awareness, good form UW etc, etc. Was there room for improvement? Certainly, but they brought plenty of basic and workable skills to the table so that a mentor would have a good chance of helping them refine, hone and build on their skills and knowledge. In the same group there was another person who spent the entire time UW plastered to the side of the DM and essentially stared at the DM the entire time. The persons buddy was only in the fringes of visual contact with the group as a whole and only because I kept hanging back to keep some sort of contact with the entire group. On several occassions the DM had to make bouyancy adjustments to the persons BC because it just wasn't being done by the diver. This person brings nothing to the table. I won't go into this persons attitude pre and post dives

So it is a range of experiences. Some where people won't listen and consider themselves the greatest gift to diving, to others that are willing to listen and work at improving.