The Worse Class In The World!!!!!

[Diver0001]

cold kiwi once bubbled...
<snip>
im ****ting bricks about our o/w next week when we are in the sea..........but they all in the end past every requirement in the pool sessions we didnt care if we were in there all night they were going to pass everything

<snip>

The others have given you a bit of a whipping already so I'll just offer ideas for the way forward with this group.

First of all, if you're worried about taking them in the ocean then don't. Give them extra sessions in the pool first. Practice skills, play skills-games (if you need examples just ask). Maybe spend some time teaching them how to swim and snorkel. Spending some time getting comfortable in the water will help even if it's not required......

And forget about your time schedule. Putting yourself under time pressure is artifical and it's getting in the way of teaching them. Slow down.

And split them up. What we would do with this group is split them up, maybe in pairs and spread them out into other OW groups. Maybe they'd end up repeating 1 or 2 pool sessions but it doesn't sound like that would hurt. And if you really want to keep this group together then you're going to need another c.a., maybe 2.

And I'll just echo something that someone else already said. The names you used to describe these students makes me think that you are frustrated with the students for not learning it. Maybe try turning it around. As yourself what *you* can do better for *them*.

R..

 

[chrpai]

diverbrian once bubbled...
I will try to touch on the swimming issue. One of our instructors ran into a non-swimmer. The guy was safe enough in pool with a BC on and no one would have known that he was a non-swimmer watching him. So the instructor took him through skills in the pool, but told him that before he signed him off for actual open water (SCUBA II), that he had to take swimming classes. The man did this and is now a safe and avid diver.

I'm no instructor or standards expert....

When I did my OW in Jamaica I signed up for a Resort Course ( free at the All Inclusive ). We started with 10 people. After the safety breifing we lost 2 due to colds and after the swim test we lost 2 more. The swim test was simply swim back and forth 4 times ( probably 400' total not exactly sure since I dont know how big the pool was) with any stroke and any speed, just no stopping or touching the bottom.

Later my wife did her OW in FL and they made her do a swim test and to tread water for 10 minutes. He saw her use every stroke known to man and asked her about her background. She mentioned she used to be a lifeguard and that ended the float part of it after about only 1 minute.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The dive instruction business is full of poor students. That's because they're not there to learn diving but rather to purchase a card. Unfortunately there are plenty of shops who are glad to sell them the card they want to purchase.

Some students are more talanted than others. Some work harder than others. Dealing with this is what an instructor does (or should do)

This class is the perfect example of what I'm so discusted with in the industry.

My advice for the instructor...Quit before you kill some one!
My advice for the DM candidate...find another instructor!

 

[MikeFerrara]

This is simple stuff. If they don't master one skill they don't move on to the next. If they don't master one environment they don't move on the the next.

Why isn't this obvious to every one.

If you take these divers to OW when you admit you don't think they're ready, what could be the result? Why would you let that happen. Sorry I mean cause it to happen.

 

[Grajan]

Apart from the obscenity that these people are apparently being taken to the OW phase with completely inadequate skills (IF something happens - I very much hope it does not - and if this thread is subject to discovery sombody is going to fry) there is a root cause that is a much bigger problem - the commercial structure of diver education is completely flawed.

Statements were made that "they are only paying for lessons not certs' but that simply is not the case in practice. All of the marketing, as well as the course structures are geared to the assumption of getting certified. Worse still, the commercial structure forces this into a fixed, and very short, time frame (fixed price training).

Let's compare this with flight training (another relatively high risk activity). When you enter a flight school there is absolutely no assumption that you will become a pilot. There is also no assumption that it will take x hours (a student that we know of at one of the local flight schools has done more than 200hrs of a 40hr requirement). You pay for the hours - not the licence.

There are a number of key structural differences:

- Training standards are externally regulated
- Examiners are not from flight schools
- flight schools (in almost all cases) have no expectation of selling successful students a plane.

Driver training follows the same basic model of external regulation and no commercial conflict of interest.

The sad reality (to me) is that the commercial pressures on dive schools to crank out 'divers' and sell gear are so powerful that the idea of self regulation is ridiculous. I do not think diver training will become truly effective or safe until there is clear independent (federal) regulation.

My CMAS scuba training in France was carried out under this schema, with external federal examiners, and it was VERY tough. There was no completion date and no assumption of success.

I think it is pointless to blame the instructors. Although some will deal better with it than others, in the current environment instructors can only do so much. There is a lot of pressure on them to efficiently deliver dive gear/trip consumers. I think they and the sport of diving (not to mention the reefs...) need some outside help.

 

[j-valve]

It sounds like neither of you (class or instructor/DM) was doing the other any service by continuing the course. You should have "thumbed the class". The hand signal must be in that instructors manual somewhere

 

[Lawman]

It's classes like that that made me give up teaching brain surgery.

 

[scubaroyster]

Sorry for the long post. I won't brow beat you or your instructor. Just chalk this up to experience and learn from it. If you are fearful of the students in open water, now is the time to decide on another course of action. At the least, break down group into smaller teams.

I've never had a class like the one described, but I've had students that have experienced difficulty putting in the dedication and time to be successful with what I would call an aggressive "fast track" schedule. I never promise anyone that they will be successful in this type of class. Some adults will require additional time and instruction.

2 - 2 1/2 hours for confined water 1 is about right. Slower students may not get finished. If you can't identify the students that require either more individualized attention or a slower pace by the middle of confined water 2, you may be setting yourself up for failure with the rest of a group class. These "fast track" classes were set up for the 75% that can excel and learn on this schedule, so don't let a couple slow students steal the group's time.

Recommend, next time, you and your instructor identify your slower students and set them up with remedial work with a DM after introduction of a skill by the Instructor or AI. If able, the instructor can re-evaluate the skill after the remedial work and catch the person up. Many times, some students can't be maintained with the group, they need to be recycled back to the next class. If you can, keep them in the pool with another DM to work on bouyancy and difficult skills that have already been introduced (they need the extra pool time). I,ve got an excellent record with allowing these students the extra time; they do well.

Standards do not allow the instructor to move on to another confined water dive without finishing a prior one. You also cannot proceed to open water without successfully completing the watermanship tests (float & 200' swim). I know PADI allows the 300' swim with mask, snorkle and fins. I don't like it, so I don't offer it up. I can understand the logic in allowing it, but have trouble changing my old "that's not the way I was trained" thinking. If they can't swim, they don't get to proceed until they learn. I will let them do all the knowledge reviews and testing, though.

These short and fast classes offered at a deep discount are not for everyone. They shoulld not be used to stuff a student through regardless of commitment or ability. Got to betruthful with those that this type class doesn't fit and do not allow them to progress beyond their ability.

Bottom line, don't go to open water until the instructor can certify they are ready!

 

[McKee Boykin]

Back in the late 70's or was it the early 80's, when I was certified we had a course that took 6 weeks for OW certification. The resort course was much shorter. I don't know why any organization would shorten the course in this day of easy litigation. IMO you should not go to the openwater dives until YOU are satisfied with your students capabilities. It's your a$$ on the line. Maybe the dive shop should have screened its students better.

 

[Arnaud]

Grajan once bubbled...
...
- flight schools (in almost all cases) have no expectation of selling successful students a plane.
...

Seems to me to be the main point. I don't think LDS's make their money selling certifications, here. However, they are in the business of selling gear to qualified customers. And to qualify, you need the C card. Turning down a student means potentially losing a big sell. And that's the big problem.

In France, most dive schools are just that. And most of them are non-profit, too. And most of the instructors are not compensated. They volunteer their time. While there's plenty of other problems with the French system, the training is not tainted by any commercial prospect. The instructor doesn't have either to endorse the gear sold by the LDS because there is no LDS. It's all about learning how to dive. It can take up to a year to complete the equivalent of the OW.