The Tec - Rec Split: Who Did It?

[Mod63]

But I would not consider a relatively shallow, no-deco dive in a lake to be "technical diving at its finest" ... in fact, it wouldn't appeal to me at all ... not even on the world's finest rebreather.

Bob,

bear with me, I'm struggeling to express myself in my own language, having to write in English does not make it any easier...
For me, rebreather diving, at leat in it's current state, is part of what has become "technical" diving, and I consider diving a rebreather (especially when they really make fun ) as the pinacle of technical diving.

Now you take that 'breather up to north Vancouver Island and go gorgonian-hunting on a 200-foot wall dive and you're onto something ...

This is a tempting offer - I have to check the Munich-Vancouver connections...

 

[Blackwood]

I always thought that he split between tech (or whatever you call it) and recreational diving was deco/non-deco. Once you have to use staging bottles, whether mixed gas or not, things tend to get complicated and dangerous if you are not competent.
Get Wet!

But that begs the questions at the heart of this discussion:


If I stay 1 minute past NDL (on whatever table) but do my deco on backgas, is it a technical dive?

If I don't stay past NDL (on whatever table) but do my deco from a bottle, is it a technical dive?


Technical is almost as ambiguous a term as Recreational. That said, I use them both (e.g. "is this charter rec friendly?" or "we need to fit enough gas for 3 Tech1 dives.")

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sure, Bob, and I certainly don't have a problem with that and don't mean to start any debate about solo diving itself. I think lots of people have been & will continue to dive solo regardless of any certifications being offered. From my personal perspective, SDI's Solo program simply gave me my best certification card that nobody will ever see or even ask for; it's really just for myself, so I can always honestly say I'm diving within my trained & certified parameters, even when solo.

FWIW - I think it's a valuable program. Most of the certs I've earned over the years are strictly for my own benefit ... the cards get tossed in a drawer and never looked at again. Education isn't about cards anyway.

I just think the whole Solo cert issue is a good example of the rec/tech differences. For example, I would never do the solo dive you mentioned - not because it's solo but because deco diving is definitely in a technical class, while my cert is within SDI's specs, which call for all solo dives to be within rec limits, including no planned deco. Yet as I mentioned, here on the SB forums, Solo is placed as a subcategory of tech diving. It's an interesting intersection.

It's good to know your limitations, and to know when and how to push them ... that's how we learn. Sometimes taking a class is helpful, other times it's just an exercise in formalizing what we've already learned. The latter, to my concern, is a waste of time and money unless you need the card for some specific reason.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TDI side will eventually have their own version of the solo cert for techies. Then again, I also wouldn't be surprised if none of the techies bother with it.

Like any other class, some will embrace it while others think it wouldn't offer them anything. Personally, since solo diving is becoming more mainstream, I'd like to see more agencies offering formalized training.

I do think SDI is showing some good leadership with the Solo program, though - because people are going to do solo rec dives anyway. Same with solo tech dives; I know you guys do it, but I don't think it's in any of the tech curricula, and is probably a blatant violation of some of it. Yet that shouldn't be the case - just like on the rec side, I think a responsible tech diver should certainly be able to dive solo without violating their training parameters.

I agree ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

bear with me, I'm struggeling to express myself in my own language, having to write in English does not make it any easier...
For me, rebreather diving, at leat in it's current state, is part of what has become "technical" diving, and I consider diving a rebreather (especially when they really make fun ) as the pinacle of technical diving.

Ah ... now that makes a lot of sense. It's all just terminology anyway ... and to be honest, I was playing with you a bit. You see it as technical diving. I see it as recreational diving on technical equipment. In a manner of speaking, we are both right. It's simply how you look at it ... which is what always gets confusing when you try to put a label on stuff like this.

This is a tempting offer - I have to check the Munich-Vancouver connections...

I can highly recommend Port Hardy, on the northeast tip of Vancouver Island. In a few weeks I'll be able to give you a first-hand account of Nootka Sound, on the northwest coast. From all accounts, it is world-class diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[FritzCat66]

But that begs the questions at the heart of this discussion:

If I stay 1 minute past NDL (on whatever table) but do my deco on backgas, is it a technical dive?

If I don't stay past NDL (on whatever table) but do my deco from a bottle, is it a technical dive?

Pretty straightforwardly, I think it's just an issue of planning: no recreational dive involves planned decompression - the rec diver should be unhindered from going straight to the surface (at reasonable speed of course) at all times without violating their tables or computer. When a rec diver goes into deco on a table or a computer, a mistake has always been made. Not necessarily true (indeed, frequently untrue) on a tech dive.

I still agree there are grey areas between rec and tech, I just don't think deco is necessarily one of them, because part of the definition of recreational diving (as it has come to be) is "no planned deco" - which I think is quite an appropriate dividing line, dovetailing nicely with the "rec = direct access to surface" parameter. The depth limit parameter ("rec < 130'/40m") is certainly a bit fuzzier.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Pretty straightforwardly, I think it's just an issue of planning: no recreational dive involves planned decompression - the rec diver should be unhindered from going straight to the surface (at reasonable speed of course) at all times without violating their tables or computer. When a rec diver goes into deco on a table or a computer, a mistake has always been made. Not necessarily true (indeed, frequently untrue) on a tech dive.

This isn't necessarily always the case. As an example ... some friends and I are currently watching a momma octopus on eggs. Her den is down between 95 and 105 fsw, depending on tides. We're going down there on EAN32, and planning to have some deco obligation before we begin our ascent ... typically in the 5 to 15 minute range. We bring plenty of gas, and those on single cylinders will bring some form of bailout. Because the return is up a slope, rather than a direct ascent, any accumulated deco obligation is typically cleared before we reach our safety stop depth ... and we'll hang out at between 15-20 fsw for several minutes just to enhance offgassing. These dives typically go in the 80-90 minute range.

Are we doing tech dives? No ... I don't think so. We're doing profiles that any reasonably competent recreational diver could do, with adequate gas and thermal protection.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scjoe]

OSHA has absolutely no involvement in diver training. OSHA regulates safety in the workplace for employees. It says what a company must do to keep it's workers safe while performing thier paying jobs.

That's not true. It doesn't regulate the training directly, but it does regulate the shops by defining what the exemptions are from its regulations. Go outside those regulations and you become subject to the commercial diving regulations. Either way, how dive training is conducted is regulated by OSHA, except in the case of the self-employed using backyard pools. From OSHA:

“This standard applies to diving and related support operations conducted in connection with all types of work and employment …. However, this standard does not apply to any diving operation:

Performed solely for instructional purposes, using open-circuit, compressed-air SCUBA and conducted within the no-decompression limits;

Alternative requirements for recreational diving instructors and diving guides. Employers of recreational diving instructors and diving guides are not required to comply with the decompression-chamber requirements specified by paragraphs (b)(2) and (c)(3)(iii) of § 1910.423 and paragraph (b)(1) of § 1910.426 when they meet all of the following conditions:

The instructor or guide is engaging solely in recreational diving instruction or dive-guiding operations;

The instructor or guide is diving within the no-decompression limits in these operations;”

 

[fire_diver]

I'm pretty sure the SDI solo card is for diving within "recreational" limits only.

Having the Solo diving forum as a subset of Technical Diving makes no sense to me.



The NACD "neither condones nor disapproves" of solo diving.

I like that attitude. Basically saying you are a Big Boy,make your own decisions but be aware of the consequences if you get it wrong.

I agree with you about a solo tech cert is nonsense.

Mainly because deco diving IS a solo activity. You may have someone diving beside you, but it quickly becomes impossible to carry a fully redundant gas supply for 2 people, starting from the max planned dive bottom time, or even longer if problems arise.

 

[fire_diver]

That's not true. It doesn't regulate the training directly, but it does regulate the shops by defining what the exemptions are from its regulations. Go outside those regulations and you become subject to the commercial diving regulations. Either way, how dive training is conducted is regulated by OSHA, except in the case of the self-employed using backyard pools. From OSHA:

&#8220;This standard applies to diving and related support operations conducted in connection with all types of work and employment &#8230;. However, this standard does not apply to any diving operation:

Performed solely for instructional purposes, using open-circuit, compressed-air SCUBA and conducted within the no-decompression limits;

Alternative requirements for recreational diving instructors and diving guides. Employers of recreational diving instructors and diving guides are not required to comply with the decompression-chamber requirements specified by paragraphs (b)(2) and (c)(3)(iii) of § 1910.423 and paragraph (b)(1) of § 1910.426 when they meet all of the following conditions:

The instructor or guide is engaging solely in recreational diving instruction or dive-guiding operations;

The instructor or guide is diving within the no-decompression limits in these operations;&#8221;

OSHA makes no laws. They don't regulate anything. OSHA exists to establish guidelines. An employer has to adopt OSHA standards for there to be any teeth, and that is strictly volutary. Scuba diving is comprised of thousands of independant shops. If your shop or mine decides to go outside OSHA regs (and most probably have no idea what those are), what happens? Nothing! There are no scuba police (in water or out) to come haul the offending owner, instructor or DM off to OSHA jail.

Lastly, that OSHA reg you quoted was from COMMERCIAL DIVING.

 

[Wookie]

OSHA makes no laws. They don't regulate anything. OSHA exists to establish guidelines. An employer has to adopt OSHA standards for there to be any teeth, and that is strictly volutary. Scuba diving is comprised of thousands of independant shops. If your shop or mine decides to go outside OSHA regs (and most probably have no idea what those are), what happens? Nothing! There are no scuba police (in water or out) to come haul the offending owner, instructor or DM off to OSHA jail.

Lastly, that OSHA reg you quoted was from COMMERCIAL DIVING.

Well, you are wrong. OSHA does regulate all diving, and offers an exemption for recreational diving. If you think OSHA compliance is voluntary, ask a company who is found in violation. Regulations posted in the CFR are just that, regulations. OSHA's are better than many in that they are relatively straightforward, not too much to interpret.