The Problem with Science as a Substitute

[Teamcasa]

Why bother trying to convert and Atheist or Agnostic? They chose to believe, feel or theorize there is no God or Supreme Being. So what? The fact is Sam Harris and his ilk make good arguments, blame every bad thing that has ever happened in the world on religion and dismiss everything they can not prove or hold in their hands as claptrap (Thal’s favorite word.) Again, so what? As scientists they know full well it is impossible to prove a negative and anyone who has any faith must have a hole in their head. Again, so what?

It somehow makes them feel superior (Admittedly a broad brush and maybe not even a fair statement.) to ridicule and call people of faith names. We all know people like that. Again, so what. I love science, engineering, philosophy, history, art and music. I’m enthralled by new discoveries, breakthroughs in medicine and chemistry. But none of it diminishes my faith.

My question to the scientists and engineers out there, it’s 2008, where the hell is my flying (Think Jetsons) car you promised?

 

[nereas]

I do not try to convert them. I simply prefer to point out that they also live in glass houses built upon faith in science, and therefore not to throw stones at other people's houses built on something else.

 

[Thalassamania]

Science currently uses a form of carbon dating that assumes radiation is constant.

That's not true, all carbon dating is done with a correction curve determined by calibrating the results against samples of independently determined age.

This major assumption is so fraught with uncertainty that the best carbon dating can only tell us relative order of occurrences, and certainly not when.

Since your assumption of assumptions is wrong your conclusion is wrong.

Even so, the science world ignors the implications of the flawed assumption, and for political reasons uses this dating method as an absolute.

Since your assumption of assumptions is wrong your conclusion is wrong.

You should have learned that in college in chemistry, however if you missed that, and high school taught you something else, then sorry about that. Life is not always fair. Especially to atheists embracing science as their own religion.

You don't need an expensive university education to know that, its spelled out rather clearly on wiki. Its rather a shame that your education was wasted on arts and crafts and neglected hard science.

 

[AXL72]

I do not try to convert them. I simply prefer to point out that they also live in glass houses built upon faith in science, and therefore not to throw stones at other people's houses built on something else.

Nereas, are you hinting that you will make retribution to the Mexica (pronounced Mesheeca) for the spanish's christian based pillaging take-over of the Mexico City area and its surrounding empire?

After all, the spanish, including the friars, claimed, "we need more gold to cure our ailments of the heart, " and literally pillaged all of Montezuma II's gold....in the name of God and the King of Spain....Amen....brilliant....simply brilliant

Need to pay for churches somehow, right...?...regardless of the white lies, deceipt, killing, show of force, or any other means to the selfish end. And during that effort, might as well destroy as much of the conqueered people's archeological history as possible, right?

That is why I think it is important to convert an agnostic or an atheist$$$$...or at least the reason why the effort is so dramatic

I have faith. Thank you for discounting my faith, and crying foul when I discount yours Who promised anybody a flying car, anyway? Regardless, if enough homework is performed, it will be found that there is a flying car on the market

 

[Thalassamania]

I do not try to convert them. I simply prefer to point out that they also live in glass houses built upon faith in science, and therefore not to throw stones at other people's houses built on something else.

What crap! I hold a rock up and ask, "if released will it fall to the ground?" The answer is, "yes." That answer is not because I have faith that it will fall. I know that it will fall, because of past trials. That's science. No amount of faith, and no amount of prayer, will prevent it from falling.

 

[Warthaug]

Science currently uses a form of carbon dating that assumes radiation is constant. This major assumption is so fraught with uncertainty

Thal already covered most of this, but I'd like to ask you one question - where's the uncertainty? Radioactive materials decay at constant rates, that is a proven, tried and true fact. Not once - despite millions of observations being made - has an exception been identified.

The only uncertainty has to do with radiocarbon dating only, and not the dozens of other isotopes science also uses for dating. And that lack of certainty has nothing to do with the decay rate, but rather has to do with the amount of ¹⁴C in the atmosphere at the time the carbon was trapped.

And, as thal pointed out, we've calibrated ¹⁴C dating, so we can get exact dates (to within instrumental variability, usually a few tenths of a %). That said, it is common practice in the scientific literature to publish uncorrected dates, as those represent the most immediate form of the analyzed data.

that the best carbon dating can only tell us relative order of occurrences, and certainly not when.

Completely and utterly wrong. Todays methods have an error of <40 years on samples younger than 10,000 years (<0.4% error), and this method of dating can be used outo ~60,000 - after that contamination by air becomes a significant factor.

History tells us only approximately when Moses wrote the Old Testament Hebrew Bible, circa 1400 to 1200 B.C.E.

That's a 16% error. If you used ¹⁴C to date something positively belonging to Moses you could get that to within <4.8 years...

Bryan

 

[Warthaug]

A friend pointed me toward these today, three brochures which concisely explain atheism, the scientific method and evolution. Makes it all pretty simple...

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~edmin/Pamphlets/Pamphlet%2001%20-%20What%20is%20Atheism.pdf

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~edmin/Pamphlets/Pamphlet%2002%20-%20Evolution%20in%20a%20Nutshell.pdf

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~edmin/Pamphlets/Pamphlet%2003%20-%20Scientific%20Method%20and%20the%20Burden%20of%20Proof.pdf

This little bittys neat as well:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~edmin/Pamphlets/Poster%2001%20-%20This%20I%20Believe.pdf

Bryan

 

[Thalassamania]

Thanks Bryan ... love that Rubber Bible!

 

[Chris Hipp]

I have faith. I have faith that the sun will rise every morning. I have faith that my car will start and take me where I need to go. I have faith that the roads I am driving on are safe. I have faith that the other drivers on the road are going to drive safely, not always true.

Faith is not about religion or God, faith is about believing something that you cannot necessarily prove. To have faith you must first realize that what you are choosing to believe may not be the truth. Otherwise this is known as blind faith and will lead you to your death.

Who ever said that Atheists claim science as their religion? I am an atheist and I spend much more time thinking about how well my business is doing or being concerned about the problems in my life than I do about physics or biology. I do not feel God, I do not see God's work, therefore I have no reason to believe he is there. I know people like to say "You can't see air," No, I can't but I can breath it in and feel it when I turn on my air conditioner.

 

[nereas]

That's not true, all carbon dating is done with a correction curve determined by calibrating the results against samples of independently determined age.
Since your assumption of assumptions is wrong your conclusion is wrong.
Since your assumption of assumptions is wrong your conclusion is wrong.
You don't need an expensive university education to know that, its spelled out rather clearly on wiki. Its rather a shame that your education was wasted on arts and crafts and neglected hard science.

Thal, you don't need to be embarrased that you did not graduate from college.

It's just a pity that you did not get to take advanced college chemistry and learn about the technical weaknesses in the assumptions around carbon dating.

There are lots of 90-year old grandma's on the TV news who get their college degrees all the time. So it's never to late. There must be a college somewhere on the Big Island where you live?