The Problem with Science as a Substitute

[Rhone Man]

*Sigh*. I never understand why religious fundamentalists feel threatened by science. I don't see anything inconsistent with marvelling at the universe God created whilst seeking a deeper scientific understanding of it. I don't feel compelled to take backwards positions on scientific issues because of my religious beliefs, and I don't understand those who do.

But one thing is for certain, no agreement is going to be reached on this forum...

 

[The Kraken]

Science is how . . .

Religion is why . . .

the K

 

[nereas]

Science is how . . .

Religion is why . . .

the K

Thanks, I wish more people understood this.

To your list, I would add, "philosophy is what-if?"

 

[redacted]

Science is how . . .

Religion is why . . .

the K

Which religion would that be? Or is one just as good as another and any one will do?

 

[nereas]

Which religion would that be? Or is one just as good as another and any one will do?

That could easily be the topic of a whole new thread.

However it is clearly better to have a multitude of religions on the Earth, together with religious freedom, and only one that is state supported.

The ancient Egyptians were the first in history to monopolize religion by the state, in order to secure the power of the state, by framing the pharoah as a god.

The Romans ended up doing something similar eventually with their emperor. Constantine the Great put a stop to this practice once and for all, when he endorsed Christianity in Europe. However this eventually led further to the state sponsorship of the European kings of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe.

It was not until Martin Luther came along that the stranglehold of the European kings on religion was loosed.

In Asia, ancient ancestor worship led to Confucianism, followed by Buddhism, followed by Muslim-ism, and now at last the various Christian faiths of Europe and America are being allowed to proselyte Asia, and thus Asian peoples are beginning to taste of religious freedom as well.

Religious freedom is infinitely better than religious dictatorship.

And under religious freedom, the freedom to be non-alligned or atheist must be observed as well, or else there is really no freedom at all.

I do not mind atheists being atheists. I support their freedom to be thus. But it is annoying for some atheists to constantly argue that there is no god, or that there cannot be a god. They may have no god, and this may be a fact for them, but this has nothing to do with whether there is a god or many gods or no god.

 

[nereas]

And here I thought that the continuation of the locked creation vs. evolution would be called recreation vs revolution.

That thread started out as someone saying how much they love Jesus, and then getting blasted by a lot of atheists pretending to be scientists and saying how much they loved science books, and how science books prove there cannot be any god(s).

The point of this thread is quite different.

 

[redacted]

I do not mind atheists being atheists. I support their freedom to be thus. But it is annoying for some atheists to constantly argue that there is no god, or that there cannot be a god. They may have no god, and this may be a fact for them, but this has nothing to do with whether there is a god or many gods or no god.

I believe even atheists know there is a god (or gods). I think it is more a matter of who created who.

 

[Noboundaries]

I really hate to split hairs here, but this is one of my pet peeves....if you had died in 1979 you'd still be dead. I suspect that your heart stopped for a period of time and you were resuscitated by a good group of doctors. Most experts agree dead is a pretty perminant state.

In any case, I'm glad you're still with us.

Absolutely. I agree. That is what happened. And thank you. Your opinion may change of me after this post, but I appreciate the glad thought above in the moment you wrote it.

Unless you're really interested in what happened to me, most of you can skip what I'm about to write. It's merely my personal experience.

Here's what happened to me. When I regained consciousness in the hospital 12 hours after the motorcycle accident, I knew three things. Understand, when I say I "knew" three things, it was the same "knowing" as my own name. They were the only thoughts in my "state of shock" mind as I woke up. Their presence felt incredibly curious and glaringly obvious.

First, I knew that that I'd been someplace else and returned. Don't bother asking for details where I went because they are sketchy at best. All I really remember is a bright light, loving questions without judgment, and a peace beyond description.

Second, I knew there was (is) a God, but not the man on the throne. I was a confirmed agnostic before hitting the wall of a cement culvert on my motorcycle at 125mph. When I woke up in the hospital, my understanding was completely different. I'd knew I'd had an encounter with a higher presence and that in our human state we are absolutely incapable of conceiving of God's nature. Unconditional love is as close as we can get and it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. If you can feel love, you've touched an atom of God.

Third, I knew I was alive for a purpose, but the knowledge of what that purpose is I was not allowed to bring back with me. In fact, when I was in the "somewhere else" place, I had access to the all the answers to any questions I could ask. I was not allowed to bring those answers back either, but like my quote in my profile says, ask any question and the answer will find you. My family has all learned to do it, but it is easy for them to forget asking the question. It is fun when you remember though and the answer appears. I have a ball asking questions and watching for the answer(s).

I spent years in churches of many denominations attempting to understand what I had experienced. There were no answers there. They're close, but their focus is all wrong. Once they move away from unconditional love, embracing one's true nature, and sharing one's abilities to create, they falter. Religious dogma, judgement of anyone/anything, sin/grace, whatever are merely human contraptions that cloud our individual purpose. I don't fault religions. They're human institutions like legal systems, politics, corporations. They may claim divine access, but we can all do exactly the same thing as we search for answers about ourselves.

So that's what happened to me. My life changed because of what I experienced. Each of you who read what I wrote has formed an opinion of me based upon what you've experienced in your life. What you believe about what I wrote is the absolute truth for you as an individual. Whether positive or negative, it really doesn't matter to me. We each believe as we do as a result of the sum total of our experiences. I am what I am. You are what you are. And that's perfect.

Now, let's get back to discussing split fins vs blades, DCS issues, dry vs wet, you know, SCUBA stuff!

 

[nereas]

Absolutely. I agree. That is what happened. And thank you. Your opinion may change of me after this post, but I appreciate the glad thought above in the moment you wrote it.

Unless you're really interested in what happened to me, most of you can skip what I'm about to write. It's merely my personal experience.

Here's what happened to me. When I regained consciousness in the hospital 12 hours after the motorcycle accident, I knew three things. Understand, when I say I "knew" three things, it was the same "knowing" as my own name. They were the only thoughts in my "state of shock" mind as I woke up. Their presence felt incredibly curious and glaringly obvious.

First, I knew that that I'd been someplace else and returned. Don't bother asking for details where I went because they are sketchy at best. All I really remember is a bright light, loving questions without judgment, and a peace beyond description.

Second, I knew there was (is) a God, but not the man on the throne. I was a confirmed agnostic before hitting the wall of a cement culvert on my motorcycle at 125mph. When I woke up in the hospital, my understanding was completely different. I'd knew I'd had an encounter with a higher presence and that in our human state we are absolutely incapable of conceiving of God's nature. Unconditional love is as close as we can get and it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. If you can feel love, you've touched an atom of God.

Third, I knew I was alive for a purpose, but the knowledge of what that purpose is I was not allowed to bring back with me. In fact, when I was in the "somewhere else" place, I had access to the all the answers to any questions I could ask. I was not allowed to bring those answers back either, but like my quote in my profile says, ask any question and the answer will find you. My family has all learned to do it, but it is easy for them to forget asking the question. It is fun when you remember though and the answer appears. I have a ball asking questions and watching for the answer(s).

I spent years in churches of many denominations attempting to understand what I had experienced. There were no answers there. They're close, but their focus is all wrong. Once they move away from unconditional love, embracing one's true nature, and sharing one's abilities to create, they falter. Religious dogma, judgement of anyone/anything, sin/grace, whatever are merely human contraptions that cloud our individual purpose. I don't fault religions. They're human institutions like legal systems, politics, corporations. They may claim divine access, but we can all do exactly the same thing as we search for answers about ourselves.

So that's what happened to me. My life changed because of what I experienced. Each of you who read what I wrote has formed an opinion of me based upon what you've experienced in your life. What you believe about what I wrote is the absolute truth for you as an individual. Whether positive or negative, it really doesn't matter to me. We each believe as we do as a result of the sum total of our experiences. I am what I am. You are what you are. And that's perfect.

Now, let's get back to discussing split fins vs blades, DCS issues, dry vs wet, you know, SCUBA stuff!

With me, the experience was quite similar, with one thing in addition. I remember that I was not wild about having to return, because I preferred to stay in the other place instead. But being told that it was not yet my time, I was sent back to live out my life.

Now I fully understand how the Biblical prophets must feel, like Moses or Saint Paul, when they tell of their experience, and no one chooses to believe them.

But it does not matter who believes or who does not, because that does not change anything.

Therefore I respect science, with some of its wild theories, like wandering black holes, and self-generation of proteins and single celled creatures, and the origin of the species, none of which can be proven, but all of which tend to hold science together as a body of thought independent of religion.

But I do not get to hung up on science, on the other hand either. It is what it is, which is a bundle of ideas that try to explain what can be seen of the physical world.

And philosophy asks about a lot of hypothetical and ethical what-ifs.

Whereas religion is what we have from phophets who have left their experiences to us, in writing. It is a very good thing that Egyptian hieroglypics developed into the Hebrew alef-bayt, and this into the Greek alphaveto, and this into Latin, and all this finally into English and the other European languages. Or else we would not know what the prophets have had to say.

As such, their writings have evidential value to us all, and they are worthy at least of our consideration. Even if afterwards you choose to become atheist.

Since everyone is free, everyone is free to pick and choose as they see fit. And by picking and choosing, they seem to be developing their own immortal character, and these choices will likely have infinite consequences.

 

[AXL72]

Discussions like this always make me laugh out loud.

Regardless of beliefs, religion says God created the heavens and earth and all that inhabit those regions (I'm obviously paraphasing). Science studies the heavens and earth and everything that inhabits those regions. A + B = C. Seems that one day science will either prove or disprove the existance of the Creator. Religion fears what science may find because they've lost the control they once believed they had. Science isn't seeking God, but if there's one there, they'll find it.

Meanwhile, everyone else takes sides. Fun stuff to observe.

I died in a motorcycle accident in 1979 and was rescusitated. I had an interesting experience at that time. Religion has it partially right, but it isn't the piece they think is important. Science has it partially right, but they often seek answers for all the wrong questions. When each of us arrives at that point of our own transition when our bodies cease to function, you'll be shocked at how simple the goal of life really is and how insignificant discussions, beliefs, and affiliations truly are.

OK, so are you going to tell us?

As a side note with no relevance to the quoted post:

*giggles* *giggles*


and I thought I was the one that was going to be bad and get banned for rescuscitating the religeon vs. demon worshipers thread?

I am starting to really like you, nereas. Remind me to be polite on my best manners from now on.

All I got to say is, Kudos, mate!....but beware of the hammer of Rick. I dare not even think to mess with him. You got some big cahones.


Post Post Note: Maybe the K is the moderator here. Yeah, don't mess with him either.