The Philosophy of Diver Training

[vladimir]

I must admit that I find it confusing when Americans beat themselves in the chest, citing the First Amendment as the solution/defence for everything and anything

I'm working on a variant of Godwin's Law, something like: The poster most likely to invoke the First Amendment is the person least likely to understand it.

But this amateur dramatics about 'who would I let my kids train with' is pure nonsense of the most emotional and puerile kind. People are NOT dying out there. You're creating this huge rift where there is none - better training standards: yes. But the current standards aren't killing people in any numbers so they're clearly not TOO bad so yes, I'd happily give my son or daughter away to any of the current training agencies to get trained. Although they are 6 [boy is my avatar, left] and 4 respectively so I'll have to wait a little longer.

At the risk of sounding dramatic, for the sake of your children, reconsider this stance in the intervening years. My ex-wife did a resort course on our honeymoon in a few hours to prepare for our shore-entry dive in Kauai the next day. She bolted to the surface in a panic--luckily from a fairly shallow depth--and it was years before she dived again. After receiving proper instruction she turned out to be a good, comfortable diver; she was always a good swimmer and a good athlete.

I am a slow learner, no doubt, because I entrusted my current fiance to a highly-recommended 5-star PADI instructor, although at least this time she took a full certification course. He over-weighted her and put an ill-fitting bc on her in preparation for the kneeling skills on the first check-out dive. The bc managed to float up without her and stress her out. She aborted the dive and hasn't dived in the 10 years since. But you are correct to point out that they are both still living.

 

[Thalassamania]

I let my wife train under PADI. Of course she is a warm water only diver. The key is what you do after OW, where you dive, how you dive, who you dive with and what further training you get along the way. I don't think it's necessary to walk out of OW a complete dive master. You just have to make sure you dive within your abilities. Where you dive DCBC I would not assume that minimual PADI training would be enough to start diving. But for easy clear warm water tropical diving I do think the PADI minimums are enough to get a diver started. They still have a lot to learn but that can be learned as they dive with more experienced mentors, gain experience just diving, and take additional classes. It all doesn't have to occur in the initial course. I do think it's great that there are those of you, DCBC, Thal, Walter, Jim Lapenta and others that teach very compreshensive courses and turn out very skilled divers right out of OW. I just don't think that is the only way it needs to be done, depending on conditions of course.

It is not a matter of the fact that we might teach more comprehensive courses, that's not the question on the table, of course we do, and we do so for any number of reasons. The question was would we permit one of your children to train at the minimum standards level of any of the agencies (I'm not considering UTD or GUE here), and the answer is no, emphatically no, we would even want to see any of your children (or your wife, for that matter) train at that level. I'll stack up the divers I train against any newly qualified divemaster or instructor and I have complete confidence that they will blow them out of the water, is that level really necessary for everyone? Maybe not, but that level is so easy to achieve, I really have to ask, why not?

I am confused... Are people dying: (1) rarely; (2) not at all; or (3) not in appreciable numbers?

People are not dying in great numbers, but the numbers do appear to have taken an uptick again and are approaching the bad old days of the late 1970s. But so many of the tragedies are so, so avoidable.

Are you insulting the OP for posing such a question, the respondents, or both? I must admit that I find it confusing when Americans beat themselves in the chest, citing the First Amendment as the solution/defence for everything and anything, much in the same way that DIR folk suggest BP/W for whatever diving malady ails you. Do you believe in free speech or not? If you do, why insult the OP, respondents, or both, rather than offering a compelling argument against their preposition?

Here on Scubaboard it seems to be the Second Amendment that posters fall back on rather than the First. All the First Amendment does is guarantee your right (in many cases) to make asinine statements.

My response was truthful and measured. I am sorry if you did not like it, but then again, you don't have to.

True, the American way is to fall back on the Second Amendment.

 

[Crush]

True, the American way is to fall back on the Second Amendment.

:biggun:

 

[Diver Tim]

I'm wholeheartedly behind you on this one...

I'm working on a variant of Godwin's Law, something like: The poster most likely to invoke the First Amendment is the person least likely to understand it.

...but not this one.

I am a slow learner, no doubt, because I entrusted my current fiance to a highly-recommended 5-star PADI instructor, although at least this time she took a full certification course. He over-weighted her and put an ill-fitting bc on her in preparation for the kneeling skills on the first check-out dive. The bc managed to float up without her and stress her out. She aborted the dive and hasn't dived in the 10 years since. But you are correct to point out that they are both still living.

You seem to imply cause and effect; he put her in an ill-fitting BC because he was a PADI instructor. He could have just been poor instructor, PADI notwithstanding.

 

[Thalassamania]

You seem to imply cause and effect; he put her in an ill-fitting BC because he was a PADI instructor. He could have just been poor instructor, PADI notwithstanding.

No, he doesn't imply that at all. He was a poor instructor, and he was a PADI instructor. If anything he expresses surprise that a well recommended PADI instructor could be such a nincompoop.

 

[Diver Tim]

No, he doesn't imply that at all. He was a poor instructor, and he was a PADI instructor. If anything he expresses surprise that a well recommended PADI instructor could be such a nincompoop.

I have to disagree...

I am a slow learner, no doubt, because I entrusted my current fiance to a highly-recommended 5-star PADI instructor...,

His post leads me to believe that he thinks he should have known that a PADI instructor would have been substandard simply because he was a PADI instructor, and that this was also the reason that he fitted the student in question with a poorly fitted BC.

 

[vladimir]

His post leads me to believe that he thinks he should have known that a PADI instructor would have been substandard simply because he was a PADI instructor, and that this was also the reason that he fitted the student in question with a poorly fitted BC.

No, I don't think that and didn't mean to imply that. What I meant was, I took a recommendation and the imprimatur of a major agency as sufficient evidence that an instructor would safely train my loved one--and that was a mistake. The, "I'm a slow learner.." was to point out that I should have learned from the resort-course experience of my wife--agency unmentioned and unknown--before putting my fiancee through a similar bad experience years later. I should have vetted the course and the instructor personally.

My ex-wife was, eventually, well-trained by a PADI/NAUI instructor, and my original course in 1975 was a PADI/YMCA dual-certification course. So I have no doubt that you can get good training from a PADI instructor--but in those two cases that I am familiar with, the instructor in question went well beyond today's standard course.

 

[DCBC]

When examining OW (or equivalent) training, it is difficult to separate the instructor from the agency standards. Some agency instructors are allowed to teach past the standards, while others are not.

I have to agree with Thal that as far as the "Agency Standards" are concerned, they do not in themselves ensure that a diver is properly prepared for all conditions. The only possible exception to this may be LAC, as they have increased their standards over the years (I believe they're the only ones to have done so).

In choosing a training agency, it would appear that all Agency Standards have to be evaluated in-light of:

a) the diving conditions present;
b) the instructor's ability (or inability) to add to these standards; and
c) the instructor's willingness to do so.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not if it's just more of the same, the logical extension of which is the guy with 5,000 dives, all in the same spot. But more is also different and of increasing challenge ... that's another story. Your assumption that a longer class is composed of more mask clears and regulator recoveries is simply not valid.

That isn't my assumption at all ... my assumption, based on my experiences as both an instructor and a student for some really great instructors, is that class is an artificial environment ... one where the goal is to demonstrate skills the instructor wants to see, to the level the instructor wants to see them, in an environment planned for by the instructor. My assertion is that after a certain period of time, the law of dimishing returns kicks in and most divers would be better off going out on their own and applying what they've learned in a real-world environment, where they can put some context around it before trying to learn more. For a lot of folks, that will teach them more than they'd learn by extending their class.

If you think that your class doesn't constrain your students within limits that YOU set, you're kidding yourself. In fact, you continually describe those constraints in your posts. Until a diver can get out in the real world, make their own decisions, and be completely responsible for the outcome of those decisions, they are inhibited ... and at least some of what they learn in class isn't being applied in a way that will help them become well-rounded divers.

Once again, Thal ... I am sure you produce superb divers. But there's a real difference between the needs of people who dive as part of a specialized job and those who dive as a recreational activity ... particularly in a nice, easy tropical environment. Not everyone needs what you teach. I'm certain it's better than what most people get ... and I'm equally certain it's overkill for most folks, and that you teach things that most people simply don't need to know and would never use once the class is over ... like your insistence on a particular type of wetsuit that requires a particular technique just to get on and off ... or your one-handed bowlines while wearing three-finger mitts. Hell, I've never worn three-finger mitts, and couldn't tie a one-handed bowline without any gloves at all ... and why would I ever want to learn how to?

I agree with you about the 12 dives, though ... I'd LOVE to see more dives added to the typical OW class. Four ... or in the case of my agency, five ... simply isn't enough for most people to get comfortable with what they're doing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you had a young son or daughter, which agency would you have them train with, irrespective of the instructor chosen? In other words, if the instructor was to teach to the minimum standards of the agency, which agency's training philosophy do you feel would prepare your child the best for local conditions? Why? Please be as specific as you can.

If I had a son or daughter, I wouldn't recommend them to ANY instructor who taught to minimum standards ... even if those standards were set by SEI, UTD, GUE, or any other agency that purports to set high standards.

As soon as "minimum" becomes the mindset, that instructor would be out of consideration. I'd choose an instructor who's capable of thinking in terms of what the student needs to learn, how to teach it, the constraints of the teaching environment, and plans a class curriculum around the needs of the student rather than the standards of the agency.

Locally I can think of a half-dozen (at least) instructors who teach that way ... two of them happen to be PADI instructors. And yeah ... I'd trust my kid to either one of 'em.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)