The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Web Monkey]

You say they need more work before they are certified. As they were looking forward to diving that week with a friend visiting from out of state, they complain to PADI. You have no other alternative but to issue a certification.

I'd be willing to bet that if you told PADI that you were convinced that this student was at great risk of injury or death if you issue this card, that PADI would find something in the standards to back you up. I don't know a single large business anywhere that would knowingly walk into an expensive disaster that could be avoided for no cost.

Terry

 

[DCBC]

You say they need more work before they are certified. As they were looking forward to diving that week with a friend visiting from out of state, they complain to PADI. You have no other alternative but to issue a certification./QUOTE]

I'd be willing to bet that if you told PADI that you were convinced that this student was at great risk of injury or death if you issue this card, that PADI would find something in the standards to back you up. I don't know a single large business anywhere that would knowingly walk into an expensive disaster that could be avoided for no cost.

Terry

That's interesting Terry, I had an associate that had something similar happen to him and he was told if the student met the minimums it was policy to issue the card. In all fairness however, he didn't say that the student would kill themselves.

 

[Web Monkey]

That's interesting Terry, I had an associate that had something similar happen to him and he was told if the student met the minimums it was policy to issue the card. In all fairness however, he didn't say that the student would kill themselves.

That just seems weird that the cert agency would push the issue, considering that there's nearly no up-side.

We tell the students when they sign up for class that the class lasts until they're happy and we're happy. It hasn't been a problem in the last 50 years or so. (non-PADI shop, so that might make a difference).

Terry

 

[schaffld]

If we start to bring legalities, litigation, and lawyers into this discussion, we'll never get out of it. Ditto for greedy, profit driven, dive-shop owners demanding me to pump out as many divers as possible.

Yes, I suppose I can envision a scenario in which the conditions of an area were so inhospitible that the PADI standards would be insufficient to certify an entry-level diver. I suppose we would just head to the pool to do the confined water sessions, give him/her a referral, and send him/her off to finish up the course in a more conducive environment to open water training. I do not have to admit a student into my course if he/she refuses to accept that arrangement.

Should that same person show up at my shop a month later with c-card from X dive shop in the Bahamas wanting to dive in the same inhospitible conditions in the previous scenario, there would be absolutely no moral, ethical, or professional dilemma about it... they wouldn't be diving with me or with my shop.

As a final concession to the multi-pronged attack I'm getting from you , I will admit that if such a student showed up in the scenario I've mentioned above and demanded to be certified as an entry-level diver in those conditions, the PADI standards would be insufficient. However, as mentioned I'm not obligated by PADI to certify each and every diver who comes to me looking for an open water certification, and I would politely show them the door.

or

I do have the ability to contact PADI and ask for a waiver to deviate from the standards with a very clear and substantiated rationale. I could very well teach the same skill set in my open water course under the PADI banner that you teach in your course with full and complete support from the agency. I know, it's an extra step of seeking that leeway to fit the course into the local needs from my agency rather than just the agency giving me that leeway from the outset, but it can be done.

Nevertheless, if the conditions were that bad, I wouldn't really want to dive there either. I get whiney when the water drops below 26C.

Again, in a previous post I wrote that I don't wave any one source of information as the final authority of anything. Which leads me to my biggest critique of PADI... it often tries to be all things to all people in all situations. Perhaps it can be that agency for 75%, or 85%, or 99% of the situations, but there will always be that "what about this" scenario at which point that all-encompassing policy and procedure guide becomes insufficient and something else (your agency, perhaps) will have to step in and fill the gap. Wait... as I read what I have just written, that may come across as condescending or patronizing... Please please please don't misinterpret my words as that. I say that with the utmost respect and admiration for all the agencies and professionals out there who are promoting scuba and fulfilling a need where one clearly exists.

All the best.

 

[DCBC]

That just seems weird that the cert agency would push the issue, considering that there's nearly no up-side.

We tell the students when they sign up for class that the class lasts until they're happy and we're happy. It hasn't been a problem in the last 50 years or so. (non-PADI shop, so that might make a difference).

Different agencies have a different outlook. My experience with NAUI, ACUC and CMAS would indicate that they would simply tell the student. "You have to satisfy your instructor that you're ready for certification, not us!" With PADI, it's all about the organization not the instructor. If the instructor provides more, it's in-spite of the organization, not with it's blessing.

During the 17 years that I was a PADI instructor, it was looked down upon by PADI HQ to offer more than the minimum. They actually telephoned me to complain that my course hours were consistently above the minimum and that I wouldn't get the students back to make more money if I gave them too much training on the first course.

From speaking personally with John Cronin, who certified me as a PADI Instructor (one of the founders of PADI) PADI's focus has been on lowering the training standards to increase equipment sales and strengthen the industry. That's the philosophy, so it's not surprising that business efficiency and profit outweighs educational benefit to the student. It's hard to fight financial success. They are #1 in size and numbers. From a philosophical perspective, it is interesting.

 

[FireInMyBones]

We tell the students when they sign up for class that the class lasts until they're happy and we're happy. It hasn't been a problem in the last 50 years or so. (non-PADI shop, so that might make a difference).

My buddy who trains for SSI and SDI/TDI and is one of the best instructors I've meet, tells the students that they pay for training not a cert card (sometimes that costs extra). It helps with the menatility of his students and when they see that not everyone may pass, they know it is serious.

 

[DCBC]

Yes, I suppose I can envision a scenario in which the conditions of an area were so inhospitible that the PADI standards would be insufficient to certify an entry-level diver. I suppose we would just head to the pool to do the confined water sessions, give him/her a referral, and send him/her off to finish up the course in a more conducive environment to open water training. I do not have to admit a student into my course if he/she refuses to accept that arrangement.

Should that same person show up at my shop a month later with c-card from X dive shop in the Bahamas wanting to dive in the same inhospitible conditions in the previous scenario, there would be absolutely no moral, ethical, or professional dilemma about it... they wouldn't be diving with me or with my shop.

I don't think that giving someone a referral to finish their training in Florida is ethical if you run your program in Halifax; do you?

As a final concession to the multi-pronged attack I'm getting from you

I do not intend to attack you in any way.

Nevertheless, if the conditions were that bad, I wouldn't really want to dive there either. I get whiney when the water drops below 26C.

It sounds like your with the right organization then.

Again, in a previous post I wrote that I don't wave any one source of information as the final authority of anything. Which leads me to my biggest critique of PADI... it often tries to be all things to all people in all situations. Perhaps it can be that agency for 75%, or 85%, or 99% of the situations, but there will always be that "what about this" scenario at which point that all-encompassing policy and procedure guide becomes insufficient and something else (your agency, perhaps) will have to step in and fill the gap. Wait... as I read what I have just written, that may come across as condescending or patronizing... Please please please don't misinterpret my words as that. I say that with the utmost respect and admiration for all the agencies and professionals out there who are promoting scuba and fulfilling a need where one clearly exists.

Thank you. Unfortunately however, I really don't think that the percentages are that high, but I can't argue with PADI's success. They are the McDonalds of diver certification. Quick, inexpensive and tasty. Pardon me for saying so, but I also believe it to be a health hazard.

 

[Web Monkey]

My buddy who trains for SSI and SDI/TDI and is one of the best instructors I've meet, tells the students that they pay for training not a cert card (sometimes that costs extra). It helps with the menatility of his students and when they see that not everyone may pass, they know it is serious.

The really interesting part is that AFAIK, there has been zero push-back from the students. I've only worked with a few hundred students over the last couple of years, but they're generally thrilled that they can take as long as they need.

Aside from quick profits (which is actually an incorrect analysis if they never dive again), I'm really not sure what drives the "less training is better" concept.

Terry

 

[FireInMyBones]

They are the McDonalds of diver certification. Quick, inexpensive and [-]tasty.[/-] Pardon me for saying so, but I also believe it to be a health hazard.

Agreed.

 

[DCBC]

The really interesting part is that AFAIK, there has been zero push-back from the students. I've only worked with a few hundred students over the last couple of years, but they're generally thrilled that they can take as long as they need.

Aside from quick profits (which is actually an incorrect analysis if they never dive again), I'm really not sure what drives the "less training is better" concept.

It comes down to time. My course is 50 hrs plus. With PADI you can take between 2-4 programs in this amount of time and be charged 3 times the amount. Economics wins in business, but it does take a backseat to the level of education provided. That's ok for some, just not for guys like us.