The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Crush]

Can someone confirm for me that the most basic diver rescue (e.g., inflating someone's BC and doing a slow, controlled ascent to the surface) is NOT a standard part of basic-OW in PADI or NAUI?

If the answer is "yes, it is not a standard (required) part" I say - HOLY **** !

 

[TEArrington]

The idea of requiring different levels of certification or adjusting training to stop people from being people is just not realistic. Skills deteriorate as greylion said and simply trusting the printing on someone's C-card is always an opportunity for disaster. I'm not the worlds greatest and definately not the most experienced diver, but I do work on my skills and I've had some very experienced divers that gave me the opportunity to dive with them and learn and I will at any time give that same opportunity to anyone if it's appropriate.

I agree with the original poster, the quote above and several of the inital posts about folks who dive on vacation needing a DM. Interestingly, as a "newer diver" (what I still call myself, even as I am taking Rescue classes) I am surprised that dive operators don't want to see my log book before letting me giant stride into some challenging dive conditions. Only twice did an operator even ask if I was comfortable with the planned site & conditions, both times back when I handed over an OW card, and only one of those times did they actually take a quick look at my logbook.

We should all be honest about our skills and responsible for ourselves, but it might be a good idea to talk about recent experience, strengths & challenges, cert level, and dive style before declaring the pool is open. At minimum IMHO, if you are diving with someone other than your regular buddy, you shouldn't hit the water without a detailed discussion of where you are as a diver in addition to all of the other predive communications. What you did years ago or even last year may not be relevant - being out of practice, in different physical condition, or diving in different dive conditions make the risks greater than what you might have thought. And let's face it -- no dive is fun if someone gets hurt.

 

[Walter]

Walter I am not trying to get into a match game with you. When taken out of context you can see conflict I am sure.

Nor I with you. Please explain what was taken out of context. I'm merely trying to understand your point of view. I'm obviously missing something. I hope you'll explain what I've missed. I've reread both of the posts I quoted, I don't see what is out of context.

All of these were covered in my PADI OW course...way back in 2006.

Then it wasn't a typical course. I applaude your instructor.

We're an SSI shop, so I've never had to deal with PADI, however are you saying that PADI wouldn't allow me to train a diver to be able to safely dive in local conditions?

That's not entirely accurate. You can train divers with extra skills (there may be prohibited skills). You can demo, you can have the students do the skills. You can have them practice the skills until they are damned good. You can't require the skills for a PADI certification. If the students have mastered (as defined by PADI, but according to your judgement) the skills required by PADI standards and tell you to stuff the extra skills you want to add, you would be required by PADI to certify the students. If you were teaching an SEI or NAUI course, you would be able to require the added skills before issuing the certification.

The scenario described in which a student diver is "plowing up the bottom" clearly indicates he/she has not mastered buoyancy control and/or hovering and the instructor is under no obligation to certify the diver.

I agree this particular situation is an instructor problem, not an agency problem.

When new training agencies do pop up with higher standards (whether we agree with all of the standards or not), why are these agencies ridiculed...?

I don't think they are ridiculed very often. I think it does happen from time to time by people who are insecure (merely a guess on my part) and are trying to feel better. In general, I think folks with honest disagreements discuss them, they express their misgivings honestly without ridicule. I think this is slowly changing. There was a time not too long ago when people tried to say there was no difference. Now, they usually say the differences are not necessary or sometimes not necessary for everyone.

how and where do we compile accident and fatality stats based upon the individual's certification agency?

We don't and I'm not sure we need to do so. Accident and fatality stats are a poor measurement of quality, in my opinion. They ignore the many divers who are rescued every day and have no accident as a result. They ignore the many divers who every day are prevented from doing stuip things that could have resulted in an accident or death. What we need to look at if we want to measure quality, are things like buoyancy control, trim, comfort in the water, can the diver deal with minor problems with little or no stress?

Can someone confirm for me that the most basic diver rescue (e.g., inflating someone's BC and doing a slow, controlled ascent to the surface) is NOT a standard part of basic-OW in PADI or NAUI?

In the entry level class (SCUBA Diver for NAUI, Open Water for SEI and PADI) SEI and NAUI require it, PADI does not.

 

[FireInMyBones]

Can someone confirm for me that the most basic diver rescue (e.g., inflating someone's BC and doing a slow, controlled ascent to the surface) is NOT a standard part of basic-OW in PADI or NAUI?

SDI did not teach me this until Rescue.

 

[RJP]

An instructor certifying an OW student in the North Atlantic is almost certainly pushing, if not violating standards. The expectation that a newly minted OW student should be able to dive in such conditions is almost certainly misplaced. For example, understanding tides and surge are covered in specialties so any initial training sites that require the OW student posses that knowledge are sites which are definitively unsuitable for training.

Is it OK if I quote you in the "Silliest Diving Quote You've Ever Heard" thread?

 

[RJP]

Can someone confirm for me that the most basic diver rescue (e.g., inflating someone's BC and doing a slow, controlled ascent to the surface) is NOT a standard part of basic-OW in PADI or NAUI?

If the answer is "yes, it is not a standard (required) part" I say - HOLY **** !

You're not the only one who's saying "HOLY **** !"

That's exactly what I thought when I read your post...and then your profile.

The fact that someone who's a "Master Diver" thinks that INFLATING someone's BC is part of "the most basic diver rescue" and an appropriate way to initiate "a slow, controlled ascent to the surface" is quite scary indeed.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You're not the only one who's saying "HOLY **** !"

That's exactly what I thought when I read your post...and then your profile.

The fact that someone who's a "Master Diver" thinks that INFLATING someone's BC is part of "the most basic diver rescue" and an appropriate way to initiate "a slow, controlled ascent to the surface" is quite scary indeed.

I'm not sure that wasn't simply a poorly chosen word ... but the concept is that when you bring an unconscious diver up, you let all the air out of YOUR BCD and use THEIR BCD to control the ascent for both of you. The point being that if, for any reason, you have to disengage from that diver, you want them to float up, not sink back down to the bottom.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

I'm not sure that wasn't simply a poorly chosen word ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Understand the concept.

That's a lot more than a poorly chosen word...that's a literal reductio ad absurdum.

Anyone who understands the concept would know that simply saying "inflate their BCD" is SO FAR from adequately conveying the concept that they'd never even come close to expressing it in that way.

You've explained it perfectly in less than a line of text.

 

[schaffld]

Unless (as appears often the case) "plowing up the bottom" is what would be expected by that instructor of a diver at that certification level.

Shame on those instructors, but not necessarily a reflection on the agency

No, most agencies (except for PADI) say, "We all agree that this is the list of the things that all divers, regardless of location, need to be able to do. Add what you think is appropriate for your local environment and conditions."

Sure, PADI says something along the lines of ~these are our standards and we fully stand behind them, but we also allow our instructors to build upon them by using sound judgment~ With either approach, we can all still teach the OW student to dive safely, responsibly, and with confidence in the prevailing local conditions.

You are permitted to use your judgment and "elaborate." But you can not actual insist that your students be able to perform the skills that you felt were important enough to be included as elaborations.

Yes, that is an excellent point, but I know from my experience in my career that I can certainly impress upon a student the importance of a specific bit of knowledge or skill without the need of any formal evaluation. Along with any of my elaborations will come some sort of informal evaluation of it. Yes, I will concede that I can't actually insist on them performing those skills if they are only my additions. However, I also take on a responsibility as educator as well as instructor. The difference to me is that as an educator, my role would be to not only teach the skills and information in the book, but to also influence the student's attitude into believing that my elaborations are just as important as the formal requirements. Sounds a bit naive, perhaps, but it works for me in my real job, no reason why I can't do it in scuba and there is nothing I see in the PADI system that would prevent me from doing it.

A much different approach that PADI standards are not really designed for, but that some creative PADI instructors have founds ways around.

Standards are inevitably subject to interpretation. I spent a few years in an administrative position in a respiratory therapy department. I used to drive myself crazy in that elusive and ultimately futile search for the all-encompassing "what if" policy that would cover all possible scenarios that may develop. Needless to say, I work at the bedside again.

Upon reading much of the PADI manual, there is enough "wiggle room" written into it to give the dedicated (if you want to interpret that as creative, I won't stop you) instructor the leeway he/she needs to teach a student to be that safe, responsible, and confident diver we all want to certify.

Here is where we part company. If you consider that to be agency bashing, I'm sorry ... I just see it as the cold, hard, facts. PADI standards do not create a diver who, to my way of thinking, is ready to dive in the North Atlantic, Northern California, or for that matter Hawaii. I could not, in good conscience run a course under PADI standards and certify divers who only met PADI's minimum standards.

No need to apologize... I don't take criticisms of PADI personally.

Again, I don't want to get into semantics, but I really don't see there being such a thing as "minimum standards"... An agency establishes its standards and that's it, there is no range of minimum to maximum. If you believe that PADI's standards are insufficient for you to teach a course with a clear conscience, well, I'm not going to flippantly dismiss your opinion, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

An agency that comes right out and openly recognizes that its own standards are insufficient thus placing the responsibility of filling in the gaps with what the individual instructor thinks is important for the local conditions is also setting itself up for an equal amount of criticism. Personally, I know I will be able to work within the PADI system to certify a student to dive in the prevailing conditions of where I teach. As I am sure PADI instructors in less hospitable environments are also doing.

Thanks for the discussion, as I mentioned to Jim Lapenta and DCBC, your words also will be ringing loudly in my head as I do my IDC with PADI this summer. I appreciate the input.

 

[ReefHugger]

My local dive conditions include water - there are certain risks involved here.

As a result, my first level (Scuba Diver) includes the buddy system (a redundant everything, including brain) and all that goes with it (e.g. buddy breathing (also a confidence builder), assisted ascents & basic rescue and tows. Other skills that I consider basic are buoyancy control and hovering. PPB?? This should be part and parcel of OW!

Just theory and pool, for me, is approx. 30 hours (then 5 varied open water dives).

My conscience dictates and my agency allows it.