The latest technical diving regulator the Phoenix

[Luis H]

Hi Nemrod

I am just curious, did you read my post at all or do you just like to argue just for the sport of it?

I wish I had the room to bring my vest to the Bahamas for you to try.

As I said, they both have advantages and disadvantages.

My vest did not come with any cummerbund, it has a regular waist belt and it attaches to a very vintage style backpack. I modified the shoulder straps to attach just like a vintage style harness to the same back pack.

Both my vest and my single tank wing use the same vintage style backpack and harness, no difference.

Both of my wings (the single tank and double tank) have a 30Lb lift which I think is too much for Caribbean diving, but I don't like most wings due to their construction. I don't like a bag within a bag. My experience is that they tend to trap air when you operate them with minimal air.

My Zeagle and my single tank Oxycheq are both bladder-less wings. They vent all the air out much easier from my experience.

I still want to modify the Oxycheq to try to add some elastic retracting means to control the flapping taco geometry to a more stream lined device. I got some ideas; I just need to try some stuff.


Here are some pro and cons of my wing versus vest. Notice I said my, since all of my rigs are highly modified and customized. They do not directly reflect any commercially available configuration.


Pros of my wing:

• Harness is better exposed to attach "D" rings, etc.
• It has no pockets, but allows the addition of user selected pockets
• The harness has a clean feeling from the front
• From the front it looks clean and cool. :cool2: Diving my double hose this may be the biggest selling point.

Cons of wing

• It tend to hold you in horizontal position limiting the free feeling one would get diving with no BC
• The flapping taco is not very streamed lined and just doesn't look that neat. I hope to improve this issue.
• On the surface one can not take full advantage of the full air volume to float high enough to get better visibility, from the diver and visibility of the diver. This is a major draw back for open ocean diving.

Pros of my highly modified vest:

• My harness feels the same as a vintage harness and controls the tank as good as the best harness.
• The bladder hugs my body for a much streamed lined configuration.
• In a horizontal position the bladder behaves the same as a back inflate BC, but it is possible to stay trimmed wile swimming in any position, including rolled on either side. It feels much closer to diving with no BC.
• On the surface it is possible to fully inflate the BC lifting my head about a foot above the water level (I do wear a crotch strap with all my rigs). This is a major advantage for open ocean diving.

Cons of vest:

• The sides of the bladder cover the waist belt limiting direct access to the best attachment points.
• The front doesn't look as clean and neat as a vintage harness. It doesn't look as techie, or professional, or something like that.

We have probably debated this enough and the bottom line is that dive equipment is dive equipment; I have fun with any of it (diving it and modifying it as needed). IMHO most of the shelf gear can use major modifications (and I do modify my own gear), but when it comes to diving, I can have fun even with rental gear (as long as it is not malfunctioning :shocked2: ).

I am looking forward to seen you in the Bahamas.
Maybe if we both go to Portage Quarry, I will bring my vest for you to try. You may not want to...you may never go back to your metal plate. :shocked2:

 

[Nemrod]

I doubt I get to Portage this year, probably not in the cards. Depending upon several factors and the unknown future this economy is creating I may plan a walkabout in the Keys later this year.

But, I will be with you in the Bahamas. I am not bringing very much gear, to much to put into limited baggage space, if I get a single double hose there I will be doing good much less the rest of it.

Yes, I read what you said, let me add that I agree in some places and not in others thus the discussion you have taken offense too.

N

 

[Luis H]

I am sorry if anything that I wrote sounded like I have taken offense, I am not offended at all, if anything, I think it is funny how it seems as sometimes we go around in circles on this topic. I was also trying to kid you about the subject, but that may not come through at times with the way I write, even with all the emoticons.

 

[halocline]

I did my first no-BC dive today, kicking around with my new aquamaster, plastic BP, quasi-vintage harness. It was a good news-bad news dive. First, the good news is that this aquamaster performed substantially better than my DA, which I suppose is due to the fact that the nozzle on this reg is in much better shape, more stable IP, no creep. When the phoenix nozzles get straightened out I'll turn my DA into a PRAM, and hopefully have a good chance to compare the PRAM with silicone throughout to a properly functioning aquamaster with NOS neoprene diaphragm and duckbill.

The bad news is that my no-BC experiment didn't work out exactly as I had hoped. At the beginning of the dive I was just overweighted enough to have a tough time keeping off the bottom. As I breathed down the cylinder and dropped 2 lbs from one of my pouches, it got a lot better, but still I have a feeling that for me, I'm going to be happier throughout the dive if I can puff a little air in a bladder at the beginning to compensate for the weight of the gas.

Okay, sorry for the hi-jack, back to the exciting Luis vs Nemrod wing debate.

 

[Nemrod]

Matt, it takes a while to get dialed in, some pool time is helpful. Heck, there are times when even those who know how don't quite get it right, many a time I have been light and picked up a rock and once there is the legendary story of one well known vintage fellow who was a bit heavy and came upon an old plastic bucket during the dive and picked it up and used it for an impromptu BC by turning it upside down and putting air in it and setting it under his belly.

As to the Luis vs Nemrod debate, there is no debate, the differences between he and I are completely inconsequential which is what makes our inane arguments funny. It is not like Luis went DIR and started sucking down Kool-Aid through his snorkel---lol . What Luis says, you can take to the bank. I would have dug at him some more but we were headed out the door for dinner and a movie and earlier my boss stopped by to see if I might do something useful beyond gabbing on scaryboard.

N

 

[vshearer]

If you ever get the chance, dive the ocean side of Eleuthra. Nothing compares.

Though if you are brave you can go down the holes in Rock Sound.

 

[simonbeans]

there is the legendary story of one well known vintage fellow who was a bit heavy and came upon an old plastic bucket during the dive and picked it up and used it for an impromptu BC by turning it upside down and putting air in it and setting it under his belly.


And, it is not an urban legend. August 2006, Alexandria Bay, NY, St. Lawrence near the wreck of The Islander:

The original BCD (Bucket Control Device)

Here it is inflated:

Now after "dumping air":

I apologize for the photo quality. Not the best diving conditions that day.

 

[halocline]

I've used the rock technique, in fact I used to do that frequently after giving away my weights to students in Roatan. I'll have to try the bucket, I appreciate the creative use of available tools. But what if there's no bucket? How about a bathing cap, maybe a balloon, or even bubble gum? Lots of possibilities.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

there is the legendary story of one well known vintage fellow who was a bit heavy and came upon an old plastic bucket during the dive and picked it up and used it for an impromptu BC by turning it upside down and putting air in it and setting it under his belly.

The 1973 edition of the NACD cave diving manual shows an arrangement used by a "South Carolina" cave diving group where two cut open bleach jugs are held in place with a belly band to allow both buoyancy and trim adjustment.

In the 60's it was not unknown in the cave community to tie a plastic bleach jug or similar container to the manifold with a short piece of rope so it could be retrieved and pulled down in front of the diver to exhale into it or dump air from it.

Sheck Exley, also used a horse collar BC placed under a single tank as one of the first "wings".

 

[Nemrod]

The 1973 edition of the NACD cave diving manual shows an arrangement used by a "South Carolina" cave diving group where two cut open bleach jugs are held in place with a belly band to allow both buoyancy and trim adjustment.

In the 60's it was not unknown in the cave community to tie a plastic bleach jug or similar container to the manifold with a short piece of rope so it could be retrieved and pulled down in front of the diver to exhale into it or dump air from it.

Sheck Exley, also used a horse collar BC placed under a single tank as one of the first "wings".

Yes, we have used the jug method, people don't believe me, see there, lol, it was even published and I saw several people using the horse collar on a back pack method including me. The bleach bottles and horse collars flipped over were not unheard off in cave country in the early 70s when I dove them every weekend. The bleach bottle method worked with doubles, something the flipped horse collar did not do as well. This is what it would look like.

Ah, I said "legend," and not urban legend, wink, wink.

N