Tech through PADI or TDI?

[stuartv]

Yes, I am currently a PADI instructor.

They can do whatever they want post certification. I recommend to them to seek further training when they wish.

The point is, I think people with nothing more than an OW certification can dive to 130', without further training, after working up to it. But, you wouldn't tell them they are clear to go and do that immediately after they finish with their OW course.

And that is an example of exactly what I said earlier.

It's no different between an OW diver eventually being able to dive to 130' with no further formal training, and a newly minted TDI AN/DP diver being able to dive to 150'.

I don't see it as hypocritical to certify an OW diver or an AN/DP diver and, at the same time, tell them they should use good judgment and common sense and work their way up to diving to the limits of their certification, versus telling them to go right out and dive to 130' or go right out and dive to 150' and rack up an hour of deco.

That seems especially true for new tech divers. An instructor OUGHT to be able to hold them to a higher standard of judgement and sense than what a new OW diver is held to. And thus, not certify them if they don't exhibit suitably good judgment.

Circling back to the OP, this is why I don't see a problem with the first step into technical diving being the step right up to 150', 100% O2, and unlimited deco. Just because you certify them for that doesn't mean they should go out immediately and dive to the limits of that certification. They should exhibit competence in buoyancy control sufficient to use O2 safely and good judgment to know when their personal skills and limits dictate that they should allow themselves extra margin, by using a leaner deco gas, on any particular dive.

Yes, I'm a novice tech diver. I know that my buoyancy control is decent but far from expert. I also was trained to use my brain and, if I'm going to do a deco dive in conditions that even *might* make holding a precise 20' stop challenging, I will choose a leaner deco gas than 100% O2.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The point is, I think people with nothing more than an OW certification can dive to 130', without further training, after working up to it. But, you wouldn't tell them they are clear to go and do that immediately after they finish with their OW course.

And that is an example of exactly what I said earlier.

It's no different between an OW diver eventually being able to dive to 130' with no further formal training, and a newly minted TDI AN/DP diver being able to dive to 150'.

I don't see it as hypocritical to certify an OW diver or an AN/DP diver and, at the same time, tell them they should use good judgment and common sense and work their way up to diving to the limits of their certification, versus telling them to go right out and dive to 130' or go right out and dive to 150' and rack up an hour of deco.

That seems especially true for new tech divers. An instructor OUGHT to be able to hold them to a higher standard of judgement and sense than what a new OW diver is held to. And thus, not certify them if they don't exhibit suitably good judgment.

Circling back to the OP, this is why I don't see a problem with the first step into technical diving being the step right up to 150', 100% O2, and unlimited deco. Just because you certify them for that doesn't mean they should go out immediately and dive to the limits of that certification. They should exhibit competence in buoyancy control sufficient to use O2 safely and good judgment to know when their personal skills and limits dictate that they should allow themselves extra margin, by using a leaner deco gas, on any particular dive.

Yes, I'm a novice tech diver. I know that my buoyancy control is decent but far from expert. I also was trained to use my brain and, if I'm going to do a deco dive in conditions that even *might* make holding a precise 20' stop challenging, I will choose a leaner deco gas than 100% O2.

I'm not a tech instructor. For recreational courses, I do teach exactly that. If I didn't, then I violated standards as my students did not master the skills required to dive to those limits. For AOW, I choose the 3 elective dives that are skills based (PPB, night, DSMB), and I probably will never have a student earn certification in just 5 dives, unless they go practice in advance.

 

[stuartv]

No, as has been said several hundred times in the past. Divers are expected to use good judgment in extending their limits as they gain both training and experience.

We know that you have never taken a PADI course, but you do love to tell everyone what is wrong with them, don't you?

You're saying there is something wrong with PADI here?

I don't see that, myself. I *think* the PADI progression for OW students to be able to dive deeper than 60' is the same as SDI. But, as I am in the SDI/TDI track, I wanted to clarify what agency Kosta teachers for and ask him to only speak for the agency he represents, versus asking him to speak to, for example, the agency I am certified with.

And it seems the point was made. PADI and SDI both certify OW divers for 60'. But, they do NOT have to take further formal training to eventually be able to dive to 130'.

So, I still maintain, as I said earlier, that neither PADI nor SDI trains OW divers and then sends them out to dive to their certification limits immediately. Both agencies recommend starting shallower and developing experience to work up to going deeper. Just as I suggested is reasonable for tech diver training to do.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Tech training limits and OW training "limits" are not an apples to apples comparison, they really don't equate.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So, I still maintain, as I said earlier, that neither PADI nor SDI trains OW divers and then sends them out to dive to their certification limits immediately. Both agencies recommend starting shallower and developing experience to work up to going deeper. Just as I suggested is reasonable for tech diver training to do.

I am disagreeing with this statement. My OW students are trained and encouraged to dive IMMEDIATELY to their certified limits (60 feet max depth) in similar conditions (primarily current is the issue around here - Puget Sound). Diving to 130 feet, the maximum limit for recreational diving, is another matter. If I certify someone for AOW, yes, they are trained to dive to 100 feet immediately. If I train someone in the deep diver specialty, then yes, they are trained to dive immediately to that depth. If they are not, they have not mastered the skills required and I have violated standards as an instructor.

A person with zero training could buy their own air compressor, all the scuba gear they need online or at a LDS, and dive all they want from shore or their own boat. There is no scuba police.

 

[stuartv]

I am disagreeing with this statement. My OW students are trained and encouraged to dive IMMEDIATELY to their certified limits (60 feet max depth) in similar conditions (primarily current is the issue around here - Puget Sound). Diving to 130 feet, the maximum limit for recreational diving, is another matter.

But the latter is what I asked about. Can your students ever dive to 130' without first doing additional formal training? From what boulderjohn said, it is my understanding that they can work their way up to eventually diving to 130', without any additional certifications. Thus, I would conclude that an OW certification is good to 130'. But, you would not encourage your students to immediately dive to 130' after their OW certification.

Or is the PADI position that, without additional formal training beyond OW, anyone diving that ever dives past 60' is diving outside their certification limits? Perhaps I misunderstood what boulderjohn meant when he said:

extending their limits as they gain both training and experience.

I interpret that to mean that a diver can extend their certification limit from 60' to 130' via experience. Which, again is exactly the example I've been talking about this whole time. But, maybe I've misunderstood and gotten it wrong. So, what's the deal? Can a PADI OW diver ever dive to 130' without first doing additional formal training (while still being considered to be diving within their certification limits)? I'm only specifying PADI because I'm addressing a PADI instructor, not because I'm trying to bash PADI. If I were talking to an SDI instructor, I would be asking the same question, except specifying SDI.

 

[DevonDiver]

Limits of training and experience - assume that the training dive was done to a given max depth (60ft, 100ft etc..)

If the training dives weren't conducted to that given depth, then the diver concerned would have neither training nor experience at thelat maximal depth..

I haven't taught OW for a long while. But when I last did, I remember that divers were given recommended limits at OW and AOW. And yes, it was only recommended that OW stayed above 60ft/18m. Specifically, the wording used was "recommended limit for newly certified Open Water divers.."

I guess, in that sense, it's similar to what can happen at tech levels.

However... a big 'however'... OW and AOW diving is quintessentially forgiving of mistakes and failures. In contrast, technical diving IS NOT forgiving.

Technical divers don't often have the luxury of "learning from their mistakes".

For that reason alone, there's a much higher onus of responsibility on the tech instructor to make damned sure that they aren't qualifying divers ever liable to screw up or fail to deal with both expected and unforeseen problems arising.

That's why I actually like the TecRec system. It progresses in phases whereby the diver only incrementally exposes themselves to increasing risks. That can be balanced against the training they receive.... and providing that their instructors are ethical... is controllable and defined by the instructor's experience and prudence.

 

[Pao]

Although sounding like cliche and despite other people's opinions, I still adhere to "It's the instructor and not the agency". Most instructors are teaching for, or have taught for several agencies during their careers. There are many reasons why instructors would teach for a particular agency including bureaucracy, politics, financial considerations and it seems that the actual curriculum of the agency is way down in the list. My tech instructor explains how it is done by agencies x,y,z and the reason why is it so, he then lays out what he prefers/actually does and why. In instances where there is no consensus between the different schools of thought he lets me decide (like whether to go for the isolator immediately or try to go for the perceived failed post during a failure). I believe this approach is better for the student where you actually benefit from the instructors distilled experience. And also look whether the instructor is actually doing "real" diving and not just doing course dives all the time.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I interpret that to mean that a diver can extend their certification limit from 60' to 130' via experience.

Why stop at 130'?

Which, again is exactly the example I've been talking about this whole time. But, maybe I've misunderstood and gotten it wrong. So, what's the deal? Can a PADI OW diver ever dive to 130' without first doing additional formal training (while still being considered to be diving within their certification limits)?

There is no scuba police. A PADI OW diver can do whatever they wish. I don't understand why you are not grasping that. Dive boat operations set their own rules on what they allow.

 

[stuartv]

Why stop at 130'?



There is no scuba police. A PADI OW diver can do whatever they wish. I don't understand why you are not grasping that. Dive boat operations set their own rules on what they allow.

I certainly understand that a diver can do whatever they wish. But, I specifically asked about whether it would be considered to be within their certification limits. Thus, it's not a question for the diver. It's a question specifically for/to the certification agency. Since I was asking you and you are a PADI pro, I'm asking what PADI's rule is for that.

If you, a PADI pro, are leading a non-training dive, you are not allowed to take people past their certification limits, right? So, are you forbidden to ever, under any circumstances, no matter what their experience is, take a diver that only has OW certification and no other formal training, on a dive deeper than 60'?