TDI - Intro to Tech - Necessary?

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Wibble

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The Dunning-Krueger effect is real, and a lot more people are on the peak of Mt Stupid rather than the plateau of knowledge than they think.
Have learned that… The more diving I do, the more I know I don’t know and the more critical I get of my existing skills.

GUE standards and practices make perfect sense when you consider diving to be a team endeavor. In order to fit in you are expected to conform to pre-existing practices and configurations. Nobody is picking on you, but they want everybody on the same page. For bigger projects it's a necessity for efficiency and safety.
Absolutely. Which is why we parted ways with fundamental differences of approach. I see standards as guidelines to be adapted as necessary; they (or at least one instructor who gave up teaching soon after) see standards as inviolate commands. Which is absolutely fine for both of us.

Maybe it was the end of the DIR Wars when the holy commander decreed they should wind their necks in lest it damages their reputation. Can think of at least one other agency which had the same dogmatic approach. In comparison, the likes of TDI, IANTD, et al are far more relaxed but just as effective and considerably more popular.



Just look at kit standards for a moment. DIR decrees all stages left, to leave the right side free for donation of the long hose. This ends up with stages which are far from streamlined and even a leash for the third stage. There’s absolutely no issues with carrying stages on the right, you just need to donate in the steps; donate then free the end of the hose caught under the RH chest D-ring. Nothing difficult nor dangerous about that whatsoever.

What about sidemount bungee techniques for streamlining and reduction of snag hazards in confined spaces. DIR say no. What about sidemount anyway. Again DIR say no.

Donation on a rebreather is easy and automatic straight from the bailout bottle with no complications. DIR, more specifically GUE, say no and have developed a very non standard configuration almost as a belligerence to force in the longhose including forcing the donor off the loop at a time of great stress.

Leave the best to last. UTDs sidemount configuration. Apparently the shutdown is so ingrained that UTD divers are incapable of adapting to the pretty much standard sidemount config, so they need a manifold behind their heads.
 

AJ

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Disliked the "you must configure your kit this way" attitude of GUE. Really hated the "you don't know enough to form an opinion" answer too.

Example: wanted to wear two computers. Apparently can't as "your backup is on your teammate's right wrist".

Standards are great, but there's way more to diving than conforming to the standards and rules. Enjoying the dive for a start. Maybe using kit that suits the mission. Even diving solo... or sidemount...
As far as I'am concerned, I dive GUE style only when I'am in a GUE class or dive in a GUE team. Second computer would be no problem outside class. Otherwise I do what I like including solo diving and sidemount. For CCR I do not like the GUE style, so I won't be diving that way. Nobody stops you diving the way you like outside the GUE class and teams.

It's a GUE myth you have to dive that way always, ultimately it's your decision how you dive.
 

happy-diver

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You lot that quote ad nauseam the D-K effect really should dig a bit deeper into the study demographic



“Almost everything we know about the human mind, and human brain is based
on studies of usually American English-speaking under-graduates at universities.

That excludes almost all humans. Right?

So what we know about the human mind is actually incredibly narrow and biased
and our science has to do better."

Lera Boroditsky



Mesmerisingly intelligent woman. Right?!
 

kensuf

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GUE standards and practices make perfect sense when you consider diving to be a team endeavor. In order to fit in you are expected to conform to pre-existing practices and configurations. Nobody is picking on you, but they want everybody on the same page. For bigger projects it's a necessity for efficiency and safety.

Team diving is great until the team accidentally gets separated. It's happened to me in SoFla where myself and two other guys jumped off the same boat together and descended together but got separated because of the current. The one guy that got lost is a GUE instructor. A backup depth gauge / timer / computer isn't a bad idea and it really doesn't add much in terms of gear, I always wear a backup timer in a cave and in the ocean I'll always carry a backup depth gauge.
 

ginti

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Team diving is great until the team accidentally gets separated. It's happened to me in SoFla where myself and two other guys jumped off the same boat together and descended together but got separated because of the current. The one guy that got lost is a GUE instructor. A backup depth gauge / timer / computer isn't a bad idea and it really doesn't add much in terms of gear, I always wear a backup timer in a cave and in the ocean I'll always carry a backup depth gauge.
I tried to look into the GUE standards, and I haven't found anywhere that a backup computer is forbidden.

I can clearly remember GUE instructors saying that a backup is "useless" [EDIT: I believe that the exact words were "not necessary during the type of diving we were doing", and depending on diving conditions they might change their opinion], but I can't recall them forcing divers to dive without it. It would be nice to hear from some instructors in the forum what the official GUE position is about it: forbidden, discouraged, or neutral (my guess is the last one).

P.S. as far as I remember, the diving philosophy of GUE is to plan for one adverse event at a time since having more than one accident in one dive is unlikely. In other words, planning for getting lost or for a broken computer, not for both of them; this is debatable.

P.S.2 @Wibble, every post you write about GUE contains so many differences compared with my experience. I wonder whether you have real experience with GUE at diving levels higher than fundamentals...
 

rduquesnoy

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I tried to look into the GUE standards, and I haven't found anywhere that a backup computer is forbidden.

I can clearly remember GUE instructors saying that a backup is useless, but I can't recall them forcing divers to dive without it. It would be nice to hear from some instructors in the forum what the official GUE position is about it: forbidden, discouraged, or neutral (my guess is the last one).

GUE has no issues with backup computers and / or bottom timers. But if we carry one it is recommended to put it in the (right) pocket instead of on your wrist.

Also, there is no GUE police to tell you what and what not to do once you finished a course. As long as you dive within your limits of course :wink:
 

ginti

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GUE has no issues with backup computers and / or bottom timers. But if we carry one it is recommended to put it in the (right) pocket instead of on your wrist.

Also, there is no GUE police to tell you what and what not to do once you finished a course. As long as you dive within your limits of course :wink:

I added an edit to my previous post. Anyway, I did three GUE courses, and I see it exactly how you see it. Also, I do not believe there would be any issues with a diver carrying both computers on the wrist (as long as they do not create some hazards).

It's just a pity to see that when GUE is in the discussion, people start saying things that are simply not true...
 

Wibble

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Maybe just an impressionable novice’s experience at the tail end of the DIR wars. Implies that not everyone is suitable for that style of diving.
 

ginti

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Maybe just an impressionable novice’s experience at the tail end of the DIR wars. Implies that not everyone is suitable for that style of diving.
The "DIR wars" are now over, the situation is now way more relaxed. I agree that it isn't suitable for everyone; at a fundamental level, if you want to do it side-mount you better find another agency :) Anyone else is more than welcome and standards are not that rigid at all
 

PfcAJ

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Disliked the "you must configure your kit this way" attitude of GUE. Really hated the "you don't know enough to form an opinion" answer too.

Example: wanted to wear two computers. Apparently can't as "your backup is on your teammate's right wrist".

Standards are great, but there's way more to diving than conforming to the standards and rules. Enjoying the dive for a start. Maybe using kit that suits the mission. Even diving solo... or sidemount...
Fake news alert.

No one cares if you wear a 2nd computer, and no one is going to say you “can’t”.

GUE teaches team diving, and through that lens your backup is on your buddy's wrist. If it’s not needed, why take it?

But to say you “cant”? Nah.

“You don’t know enough to form an opinion” is also baloney. “This is the way we do it based on an extreme amount of dives under incredibly demanding conditions” is more like it.
 
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