Swimming vs. Snorkling in OW Course

[Karibelle]

Then I wonder why you asked again. Why do you disagree?

I disagree that swimming is the best way to instill confidence. I asked again - what does swimming have to do with scuba, stipulating that confidence is not the answer.

Yes, you were lucky.

And apparently, continue to be. I've never yet found myself in a situation where my ability to swim without m/f/s affected a dive. You?

There's no point. He is either not able to comprehend or intentionally tries to twist my posts.

Well, that's your opinion, formed quickly and on the basis of one thread. It appears to me that the two of you had an argument that went south very quickly, and now he's tried to engage you in a reasonable discussion; you refused, and instead responded to him with sarcasm and derision.

kari

 

[Walter]

No my dear, that's an opinion formed after interacting with him over several threads and several weeks.

I disagree that swimming is the best way to instill confidence. I asked again - what does swimming have to do with scuba, stipulating that confidence is not the answer.

Judging from my experience rescuing many many divers over the years, you are mistaken.

 

[Karibelle]

No my dear, that's an opinion formed after interacting with him over several threads and several weeks.

Still, in *this* thread, he asked a reasonable question in a reasonable manner, and you've responded with a less than helpful post. Maybe you could just move past your issues, and have the discussion. Set down the baggage. Sometimes it's just a style thing. I think that both of you have useful things to say - I just wish you'd say them.

And while I am hearing the info about rescues, etc., I still don't have any concrete examples as to why swimming without m/f/s is better than doing it with m/f/s...

but I fear we are all tiring of this discussion, which is going nowhere.

kari

 

[Thalassamania]

I disagree that swimming is the best way to instill confidence. I asked again - what does swimming have to do with scuba, stipulating that confidence is not the answer.

No what he’s saying is that there is a high correlation between not being able to swim well and lacking confidence in your ability to survive in and around the water.

And apparently, continue to be. I've never yet found myself in a situation where my ability to swim without m/f/s affected a dive. You?

If we grant that there is a high correlation between not being able to swim well and lacking confidence in your ability to survive in and around the water, I’d say that every dive is affected by that attribute, it will be at the core of many conscious and unconscious decisions.

Well, that's your opinion, formed quickly and on the basis of one thread. It appears to me that the two of you had an argument that went south very quickly, and now he's tried to engage you in a reasonable discussion; you refused, and instead responded to him with sarcasm and derision.

Kari, nothing hasty there, those two go way back on this subject.

Anyway … what you’re asking for here is detailed objectification of any number of subjective determinations that an instructor makes whilst watching a candidate swim. That’s quite difficult and laborious to do. Let’s apply just a modicum of common sense for a moment, who would be easier to teach to dive:

1. a weak swimmer who approaches the water with trepidation (and shows all the usual symptoms, doesn’t like to get his face wet, can’t open his eyes underwater, immediately goes onto rapid-shallow-breathing upon immersion),or
2. someone who has spent their whole life around the water and combines great water skills with high (and rational) confidence in his watermanship and respect for what the ocean can do to you.

Obviously the second candidate would be much easier to teach. What you’re doing during watermanship testing is focusing a candidate upon an objective goal (distance and time) but you are using a plethora of data to place each candidate (from what they’re wearing and how they enter the water, to their, stroke, their pace, their breathing … on an on) in what is really a subjective continuum ranging from “unteachable” to “easy to teach.”

Objectifying each element of that process is difficult and frankly, with no disrespect, it may be impossible for a new instructor to understand. An example of that was my own experience with the checkout at the University of Puerto Rico. I know for a fact that Walt did not, and could not, explain to me everything that was going on in his head, we just scratched the surface of the more objective items that were easy for him to explain and that I, at my then level of experience, could grasp.

It's that old thing about the teachable moment.

 

[Walter]

Still, in *this* thread, he asked a reasonable question in a reasonable manner, and you've responded with a less than helpful post

No. He quoted me, said he understood me then proceeded to demonstrate he has no clue as to what I said, talking about something totally unrelated. That is not asking a reasonable question in a reasonable manner. This is his standard operating proceedure.

And while I am hearing the info about rescues, etc., I still don't have any concrete examples as to why swimming without m/f/s is better than doing it with m/f/s...

And you are free within PADI standards to certify non-swimmers to dive. You may very well be signing some death warrants by doing so, but it's certainly your decision. When I'm around, I'll continue to save their lives. The sad part is there is no reason for their lives to be in danger except misinformation and low standards from PADI and other agencies that have followed PADI's lead.

 

[Guba]

While I agree with Thalassamania's point from a teacher's aspect, there are some practical considerations as well.
(For the record, I'm not a scuba instructor or DM--nowhere close--but I am a swimming instructor and lifeguard trainer and there are some parallels.) I believe part of the dilemma in understanding the two sides of this debate has an underlying premise. That premise is "how reliant is a person on technology" in the activity at hand. For example, when we certify a lifeguard, the candidate is tested on various lifesaving skills using tubes and floats. Under ideal conditions, that guard is NEVER to be without their aids, and all rescues are to be performed with them. HOWEVER, does that mean that we should not train in how to perform a rescue without the tubes and torpedoes? Not at all. That's also why guards have to meet minimum proficiency standards for fitness. The bottom line is that while use of technology is the intended standard, there could come a time when skill, ability, and common knowledge may have to be enough to do the job.
Yes, divers are intended to have mask, fins, and snorkel at all times in this pursuit. However, since we are going to be spending the entire time in water, doesn't it make sense to make certain that a diver can exist and survive without the technology? I mean, a simple misstep could put a gearless diver in the drink. It makes sense for an instructor to know that the person isn't destined to be an "instant victim".
I agree, it's hard to imagine a case in which a diver would be forced to shed his entire set of gear. It would be good to know, however, that a lost fin wouldn't result in sudden panic and disaster. I agree with the above post. The swim test is one measure that an instructor can use to subjectively evaluate his/her students and tailor the instruction for the individual.

 

[Karibelle]

No. He quoted me, said he understood me then proceeded to demonstrate he has no clue as to what I said, talking about something totally unrelated. That is not asking a reasonable question in a reasonable manner. This is his standard operating proceedure.

He quoted you and said he saw your point. He then moved on to provide a different example, and asked for your comments on that. That is the question that I thought reasonable. What I thought unreasonable, was your response, and as I've said, I would be interested in your thoughts on his question.

Sigh.

And you are free within PADI standards to certify non-swimmers to dive. You may very well be signing some death warrants by doing so, but it's certainly your decision. When I'm around, I'll continue to save their lives. The sad part is there is no reason for their lives to be in danger except misinformation and low standards from PADI and other agencies that have followed PADI's lead.

Well, although I think this horse long dead, let me repeat that I require the swim, even though I don't (still) clearly see the point. As I said earlier (and often) comfort in the water and swimming ability do not directly correlate as I see them. I think you're a bit off the deep end by saying I "may very well be signing some death warrants." But hey, it certainly is your right to think, and say, so.

kari

 

[Walter]

I don't say so lightly. My experience has shown me it is a fact. After you've saved 30 or so divers you may come to agree with me.

He then moved on to provide a different example, and asked for your comments on that.

That's not how I see it, but giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'll approach it that way.

I have seen countless people snorkel to and from shore to get to the dive site, and use their fins constantly under water. I have never (yet) seen anyone swim without at least fins, mask, and BC in any situation while diving. So by your analogy of the foundation that we must build on, doesn't it then seem that snorkel/fins swimming would be a much more appropriate foundation than a regular swim stroke?

No. Good SCUBA skills are built upon skin diving skills, but it doesn't start there. Skin diving is very important, but it is the ground floor of the building. Good skin diving skills are built upon swimming ability. Swimming is even more basic than skin diving.

I guess my question is, at what point other than in a scuba class does swimming without equipment ever come into play with diving?

Not swimming, but the ability to swim and the peace of mind that ability brings to the diver is what matters. Peace of mind is the first line of defense against panic.

 

[Karibelle]

thank you, Walter.

kari

 

[Walter]

You're welcome.