Swimming vs. Snorkling in OW Course

[freediver]

This is the post I'm talking about; I'm hoping you'll respond to that.

What does swimming have to do with scuba diving?

For purposes of this discussion, we've established that it's not stamina. You and I have discussed "confidence" and as I said earlier, I think there are better ways to build confidence. Someone else said "ability" which I didn't find particularly illuminating; ability to swim, sure.

We've got the what. What I am looking for is the "so what."

kari

I'm afraid I responded with the not-so-illuminating idea of "ability". Here we go with the definitions once again. For "ability" I chose the definition of natural aptitude or aquired proficiency. Logically from this, I would perceive that evaluating the "swim ability" would give me a better understanding of one's "ability" with mask/fins/snorkel and perhaps scuba equipment. For me it's simple, I see the importance of having sound, fundamental swimming abilities if one is going to make the progression to being a sound, competent, safe scuba diver. Stamina? Yes, it gives a snapshot of their current level of stamina. Confidence? Yes, confidence should be attained by having self-reliance not gear-reliance. I would contend, as Walter has mentioned, there are additional skills to build confidence but swimming is, and should be, paramount to the notion that a diver's skill-learning capacity is limited only by their lack of fundamental swimming proficiency.

He makes a good point, and although I also require students to do the swim rather than the snorkel in my classes, I spend much of the time while I'm watching them do it wondering "what am I accomplishing here?"

thanks,
kari:blinking:

Instead of asking "what am I accomplishing here?" ask yourself "what can I accomplish here?". Treating the water skills evaluation as a teaching opportunity rather than a formality is a great way to instill desired habits within your scuba students. For example, note the participant's kick closely and imagine this with a pair of fins on their feet doing a flutter kick. Correct their kick if necessary. Watch the breathing pattern of a participant and see if they are lifting their head and breathing rhythmically. If they are attempting to swim the entire distance keeping the head above the water, this inefficiency will likely carry over into their snorkeling/scuba skills. Take 5 minutes and teach them how to breathe rhythmically and exhale underwater while swimming, . Now, in about 5 minutes and with 2 corrections, you have begun to set the tone toward developing skills that are essential in making yet another sound, safe, competent scuba diver. More examples?
Again, I have a solid swimming background so the notion of swimming proficiency before anything else is an easy take for me. By the way, do you do much swimming?

 

[Walter]

This is the post I'm talking about; I'm hoping you'll respond to that.

What does swimming have to do with scuba diving?

For purposes of this discussion, we've established that it's not stamina. You and I have discussed "confidence" and as I said earlier, I think there are better ways to build confidence. Someone else said "ability" which I didn't find particularly illuminating; ability to swim, sure.

We've got the what. What I am looking for is the "so what."

kari

I already responded to that point, Kari. Without the ability to swim, nothing can be done to create more than an illusion of confidence. Very few classes include any confidence building skills at all.

I agree there are many other skills that need to be learned in the OW class to finish the process of building confidence. Unfortunately, that's all too rarely done either. Lots of skin diving, lots of work taking off and putting on gear, complete doff & dons with no assistance, bailouts, gear switches while buddy breathing (not octo), rescues are all necessary elements in the process, but if you teach them all to a non-swimmer, it's like putting a steel building on mud. It's gonna fall apart if you don't put the foundation in the bedrock. Swimming is the bedrock on which all else is built.

You are also correct when you say, "I doubt that I'm going to be thinking 'geez, if I do get out of this, I'm not going to be able to swim to safety.'" The problem is non-swimmers know they are non-swimmers. Nothing you can tell them will ever make them truly believe deep down where it counts that it's ok to be diving as a non-swimmer. When the brown stuff hits the fan, they aren't thinking at all. They are screaming, clawing, climbing and lucky if they have someone who is thinking grab them and put their non-swimming butt on the boat.

I barely passed the 300 yd swim test when I learned to dive. Although my class did have confidence building skills, I did not have the confidence in my abilities until I went out and took swimming lessons.

 

[SkullDeformity]

Wait, I'm in disbelief. Are we wondering why we make people do a few measely laps across a swimming pool? Are we asking why a SCUBA diver should know how to swim? This is so ridiculous. I don't even know what else to say. This has got to be one of the more comical "debates" I've ever seen.

 

[Thalassamania]

Wait, I'm in disbelief. Are we wondering why we make people do a few measely laps across a swimming pool? Are we asking why a SCUBA diver should know how to swim? This is so ridiculous. I don't even know what else to say. This has got to be one of the more comical "debates" I've ever seen.

I think a more rational question would be, "Why on earth would anyone consider teaching someone who can not swim well to dive?"

 

[grazie42]

IMO you shouldn´t be on or near water unless you can swim, minimally, 200mtrs. This is part of the educational PE-requirement in most(?) european countries and also (as Sting pointed out) a part of the EN-requirements here. It seems irresponsible to me, to educate someone in an aquatic activity without making sure that they possess the basic skills to survive in that enviroment.

200 meters is not about stamina (if you feel it is, I really think you need to get in a pool and swim some laps). PADI says it is about demonstrating basic waterskill comfort:
http://www.padi.com/padi/en/sd/whatsrequired.aspx

 

[Karibelle]

I would perceive that evaluating the "swim ability" would give me a better understanding of one's "ability" with mask/fins/snorkel and perhaps scuba equipment.

If what we're trying to determine is "how are they going to do with m/f/s and perhaps scuba equipment, wouldn't evaluating the swim ability with m/f/s be an even better measure of how they're going to do?

I'm still not getting past the idea that watching someone swim only shows me how well they can swim.

Instead of asking "what am I accomplishing here?" ask yourself "what can I accomplish here?". Treating the water skills evaluation as a teaching opportunity rather than a formality is a great way to instill desired habits within your scuba students. For example, note the participant's kick closely and imagine this with a pair of fins on their feet doing a flutter kick. Correct their kick if necessary.

Why "imagine" - why not actually watch them use those fins? Again, if what I'm trying to do here is instill desired scuba habits, then why not use scuba gear to do so?

Watch the breathing pattern of a participant and see if they are lifting their head and breathing rhythmically. If they are attempting to swim the entire distance keeping the head above the water, this inefficiency will likely carry over into their snorkeling/scuba skills. Take 5 minutes and teach them how to breathe rhythmically and exhale underwater while swimming, .

Interesting, and as I interpret this requirement, quite far out of scope. This seems to assume that students are required to execute the swim in a particular stroke - front crawl. And seems to assume that part of my function is to instruct in the quality of their swimming. Again, if we want to use the watermanship exercise to improve scuba ability, then why not have them actually use that snorkel?

Many of my students do not choose front crawl as their stroke. Can you amend your example above to help me help those students improve? And do you think that front crawl is the only acceptable stroke? i.e. is that what you require?

Now, in about 5 minutes and with 2 corrections, you have begun to set the tone toward developing skills that are essential in making yet another sound, safe, competent scuba diver. More examples?
Again, I have a solid swimming background so the notion of swimming proficiency before anything else is an easy take for me. By the way, do you do much swimming?

I appreciate the example, but still do not see how this would lead to a better diver than just having them practice with m/f/s. And as I say, I fear some of the things you suggest are way out of scope for me. While you, as someone with "a solid swimming background" may feel qualified to critique and correct someone's swimming stroke, I do not. I am a proficient swimmer, and yes, I do swim - as a form of exercise - more in the winter as I tend to trade my swimming for bicycling outside when the opportunity arises.

thanks for the clarification of your points; I appreciate the discussion.

kari

 

[Walter]

I appreciate the example, but still do not see how this would lead to a better diver than just having them practice with m/f/s.

It's all about confidence and avoiding panic when things go wrong. Things do go wrong.

 

[Karibelle]

I already responded to that point, Kari. Without the ability to swim, nothing can be done to create more than an illusion of confidence. Very few classes include any confidence building skills at all.

And I've already disagreed. I, too, was not a great swimmer when I did my OW course, but had no problems with my confidence. As I said in a different post, I did not become a "good swimmer" until I faced the timed swim for my DM course. At that time I had been diving for about five years. Was I just lucky?

Thanks for responding to my question, but I was also hoping you'd respond to the other poster.

kari

 

[Karibelle]

Wait, I'm in disbelief. Are we wondering why we make people do a few measely laps across a swimming pool? Are we asking why a SCUBA diver should know how to swim? This is so ridiculous. I don't even know what else to say. This has got to be one of the more comical "debates" I've ever seen.

Alas, yes. Why do you think we make them do a few measly laps? Even if it is a "ridiculous" and "comical" question, I am quite interested in getting a real answer... can you help?

tia,
kari

 

[Walter]

And I've already disagreed.

Then I wonder why you asked again. Why do you disagree?

I, too, was not a great swimmer when I did my OW course, but had no problems with my confidence. As I said in a different post, I did not become a "good swimmer" until I faced the timed swim for my DM course. At that time I had been diving for about five years. Was I just lucky?

Yes, you were lucky.

Thanks for responding to my question, but I was also hoping you'd respond to the other poster.

kari

There's no point. He is either not able to comprehend or intentionally tries to twist my posts.