Swimming vs. Snorkling in OW Course

[Karibelle]

I agree, it's a question of how far does someone have to swim for an instructor to be able to evaluate. But ... in the first 50 yards I can tell you who's "teachable" but it often takes further and a little tiredness to tell you who's "not yet teachable."

Evaluate what? If it's not confidence and it's not stamina, what is the point of the swim?

kari

 

[mjatkins]

I agree there are many other skills that need to be learned in the OW class to finish the process of building confidence. Unfortunately, that's all too rarely done either. Lots of skin diving, lots of work taking off and putting on gear, complete doff & dons with no assistance, bailouts, gear switches while buddy breathing (not octo), rescues are all necessary elements in the process, but if you teach them all to a non-swimmer, it's like putting a steel building on mud. It's gonna fall apart if you don't put the foundation in the bedrock. Swimming is the bedrock on which all else is built.

I see what you are saying Walter, however I have seen countless people snorkel to and from shore to get to the dive site, and use their fins constantly under water. I have never (yet) seen anyone swim without at least fins, mask, and BC in any situation while diving. So by your analogy of the foundation that we must build on, doesn't it then seem that snorkel/fins swimming would be a much more appropriate foundation than a regular swim stroke? I guess my question is, at what point other than in a scuba class does swimming without equipment ever come into play with diving?

That can be a piece of it. The jock that jumps in and whips off a sub 25 sec 50 meters you know has the watermanship (and is going to be an attitude problem), the guy who starts of doing the elementary backstroke or sidestroke, but never changes pace or stroke but finishes a few seconds ahead of the deadline … well you don’t really know about him till the end.

I don't mean to be overly picky about wording, but I'm not sure I see why a guy who jumps in and whips off a sub 25 sec 50 meters would signal you to an attitude problem. Perhaps he's just a good swimmer. Maybe you have Michael Phelps in your class. I would think that having the dedication to train enough to do this type of swimming would be an indication of a great attitude.

 

[freediver]

Evaluate what? If it's not confidence and it's not stamina, what is the point of the swim?

kari

Ability. The ability to demonstrate confidence and stamina over a predetermined distance. Specifically with the swim, the ability to demonstrate a sustained effort using a coordinated stroke and rhythmic breathing as well as a stabilizing, propellant kick. The swim shows me that, without the use of swim aids (M/F/S), the individual can display to me the most fundamental of skills that should be required before going into any aquatic activity.

 

[Walter]

I see what you are saying Walter, however I have seen countless people snorkel to and from shore to get to the dive site, and use their fins constantly under water. I have never (yet) seen anyone swim without at least fins, mask, and BC in any situation while diving. So by your analogy of the foundation that we must build on, doesn't it then seem that snorkel/fins swimming would be a much more appropriate foundation than a regular swim stroke? I guess my question is, at what point other than in a scuba class does swimming without equipment ever come into play with diving?

You obviously have no idea what I'm saying.

 

[mjatkins]

You obviously have no idea what I'm saying.

OK. Enlightening post. Thanks for the effort.

 

[Walter]

It doesn't matter what I post, you have never understood my posts. I suspect you never will. Why should I waste my time writing to you or your time reading? DAMN! I just wasted your time and mine once again.

 

[mjatkins]

It doesn't matter what I post, you have never understood my posts. I suspect you never will. Why should I waste my time writing to you or your time reading? DAMN! I just wasted your time and mine once again.

As I read this I can't help but picture you standing in the doorway with your suitcase, ready to go back to your parents house.

Don't go Walter! I do understand you. I promise I'll make more of an effort. Ahh, come on. Just put down the bag and come inside, I promise I'll make it up to you. :10:

 

[Karibelle]

It doesn't matter what I post, you have never understood my posts. I suspect you never will. Why should I waste my time writing to you or your time reading? DAMN! I just wasted your time and mine once again.

Walter, it seemed like a reasonable question... and I am interested in hearing what both of you have to say. Is there any chance you could go back and reread, and answer the post? He makes a good point, and although I also require students to do the swim rather than the snorkel in my classes, I spend much of the time while I'm watching them do it wondering "what am I accomplishing here?"

thanks,
kari:blinking:

 

[Walter]

Kari, I'll be happy to answer your questions. What exactly would you like to know?

 

[Karibelle]

I see what you are saying Walter, however I have seen countless people snorkel to and from shore to get to the dive site, and use their fins constantly under water. I have never (yet) seen anyone swim without at least fins, mask, and BC in any situation while diving. So by your analogy of the foundation that we must build on, doesn't it then seem that snorkel/fins swimming would be a much more appropriate foundation than a regular swim stroke? I guess my question is, at what point other than in a scuba class does swimming without equipment ever come into play with diving?

This is the post I'm talking about; I'm hoping you'll respond to that.

What does swimming have to do with scuba diving?

For purposes of this discussion, we've established that it's not stamina. You and I have discussed "confidence" and as I said earlier, I think there are better ways to build confidence. Someone else said "ability" which I didn't find particularly illuminating; ability to swim, sure.

We've got the what. What I am looking for is the "so what."

kari