Surprised VIP + O2 Cleaning Many $$$'s

[Wayward Son]

It is not a "rule". It may be the policy of that shop. If the tank will be or may be exposed to PP blending then yes, it needs to be O2 cleaned. But if it's filled from a bank, or if the mix occurs in a stick or with a membrance system, before the gas enters the tank, then up to 40% can be safely filled without O2 cleaning.

The shop should have informed you before doing anything. If it were me, I'd be taking a look at other shops to take my business to in the future.

 

[RonFrank]

Is that they put marbles (or some similar thing) in the tank with a solution like SimpleGreen, and roll them. They replace the oring in the value, and soak that in a solution like simple green as well. They then rinse, and dry everything, and reassemble it.

This is from my impression how it's been done in the past, and continues to be done. There is no such thing from my understanding as a tank that is OK for 40% but not for 100% as the procedure is the same for both.

IMO this appears to be a game that the LDS's are playing called lets rip off the consumer! Maybe the insurance costs have gone up, but I can not imagine by much. Lets face it, ONE incident does not kill insurance costs. Think about car insurance where there are 1M$$ cases on a daily basis, granted in a much larger market...

I hope this is the proper forum for this post - if not please feel free to move.


First off, I live in the Washington DC area.

I took 5 tanks (Nitrox) to LDS to have what I thought would be a normal VIP (@$15.00 ea.) and of course a fill (30% O2).

When I got the bill, I almost fell over. Each tank (5) was charged an additional $50.00 for O2 cleaning. Needless to say, this times 5 tanks was a much bigger bill than I anticipated !!!

The LDS told me that a new rule has arisen - any tank that will be filled with more than 23% O2 has to be cleaned as though it's going to be filled to 100% O2. Somthing about a Nitrox tank blowing up sometime ago tha killed someone.

This O2 cleaning is suppose to be valid through the next Hydro, where the O2 cleaning would need be done again at another +$$$'s - unless I fill in some "bad" place and that invalidates the whole process.

#1 LDS should have infomed me first instead of surprising me. I did have a long talk with th owner and they're going to do my next 2 tanks free.

#2 No more Nitrox fills for me ! and I'll be sure to tell them that before anymore VIP's

#3 Nitrox filling equipment at LDS's could become redundant, if more like me go back to strictly air fills.

I use my personal tanks for local East Coast diving and that's usually only two boat dives a day either off New Jersey or North Carolina. I really feel the only benifit that I get from Nitrox is on my twice a year live aboard trips where I do 4- 5 dives a day for multiple days and the tanks are provided on the boats.

Anyone else have a similiar surprise ? Thoughts ?

NAIBdiver1

 

[redacted]

It is not a "rule". It may be the policy of that shop. If the tank will be or may be exposed to PP blending then yes, it needs to be O2 cleaned. But if it's filled from a bank, or if the mix occurs in a stick or with a membrance system, before the gas enters the tank, then up to 40% can be safely filled without O2 cleaning.

That's what I thought, especially since this LDS is a PP blender. But he explained that O2 cleaning requirement was not just store policy, but was new government agency requirement for O2 concentrations over 23.5 (I think) %. He rattled off some acronyms but I was thinking how that settled it, "I just stick withn air in my personnal tanks" so they didn't stick. I'll check again tomorrow and post if nobody comes up with a reference.

 

[wedivebc]

That's what I thought, especially since this LDS is a PP blender. But he explained that O2 cleaning requirement was not just store policy, but was new government agency requirement for O2 concentrations over 23.5 (I think) %. He rattled off some acronyms but I was thinking how that settled it, "I just stick withn air in my personnal tanks" so they didn't stick. I'll check again tomorrow and post if nobody comes up with a reference.

Compressed gas association CGA has always maitained that O2 concentrations higher than 23.5% be treated as oxygen. Recently luxfer issued a statement that their tanks are not O2 cleaned for any mixtures above 23.5%. The 40% "rule" that the scuba industry has adopted is not based on any science outside the fact that we have been getting away with it for a few years. Luxfer is just following recommendations from CGA who is a governing body for all compressed gas industry of which scuba is a very small part.

 

[Mark Vlahos]

Although I am temporarily in Southern California, my permanent home is in Fredericksburg, and I have run into the same problem with some of the Northern Virginia shops. I believe that the information contained in this link is what the shops are using to support the use of a new standard. We may all be used to the 40% rule, it would seem that some shops are adopting this new 23.5% rule. The article covers it in detail.

Since there are no SCUBA police the industry is covered by regulations and practices from many different and sometimes contradictory sources. Agencies like NASA, NOAA, U. S. NAVY, and the U S Compressed Gas Association, as well as the insurance industry create a confusing web of standards.

Personally the 40% rule has, in my opinion, proven itself over time. But then I don't own a SCUBA shop and I don't fill my own tanks very often, so my personal opinion doesn't count for squat. It seems that there are several shops in Northern Virginia that are adopting this newer 23.5% rule, other parts of the country may not have any shops that are adopting this standard. All I can suggest is that you get your tanks maintained to the standard that is used by the place you get fills.

It is unfortunate that the charges were a surprise to you, the shop should have been very clear when you took the tanks in.

Hope this information helps,

Mark Vlahos

 

[Wayward Son]

Yes, there is some lawyerese from CGA, which Luxfer has repeated. This does not constitute an governmental or industry rule which must be followed.

The dive shops around here know about the CGA statement. If they're not mixing in the tank, they do not insist on O2 clean tanks for under 40%. If they are mixing in the tank, it needs to be O2 clean regardles of the final mix.

I'm buying 2 used tanks right now. They were just hydroed & VIP'd, but the LDS has not put valves in them yet. When they do, they will fill them with EAN32 from their banks, then I will pick them up.

These tanks are not O2 clean. Nor did I have the 2 that I had VIP'd & filled with nitrox last month O2 cleaned.

The dive industry simply is not bound by any such rule. Shops may choose to do this in an effort to insulate themselves from law suits, but a nitrox sticker does not mean "O2 clean tank", it simply means it has, or should have, nitrox in it. If it's O2 clean, that will be indicated on the VIP sticker.

If I frequently took these tanks to other places, where I could not be sure of pre-mix fills, I would pay to have them cleaned. Since I have 2 shops that I buy all my fills from & neither have any need for them to be cleaned, it would be a waste of my money.

 

[darylm74]

Wow! One thing my shop does is they ring up the total before I leave when I drop off my gear so I know how much I'm going to be paying before I walk out the door the first go around. The initial cost to get an O2 cleaning is $40 but if you're bringing a Nitrox tank that has had a previous O2 cleaning to be vis'd, it is $20, normal is $15 for aluminum and $12 for steel. They don't require O2 cleaning due to the fact that it is already banked there.

 

[aquaoren]

That's nothing guys.
I was travelling to South Caroline for a weeks vacation and took my tanks with me. They were in Hydro, current vis and O2 cleaned for nitrox. The dive shop wouldn't fill my tanks with nitrox without O2 cleaning them prior for $60 a tank. When I asked why, they started to mumble something about laws. When I told them it's BS as the tanks are O2 cleaned and marked as required by law, they changed the tune to the fact that it is store policy as they can not be sure how well the tanks were cleaned. Sucker

 

[DEEPLOU]

That's nothing guys.
I was travelling to South Caroline for a weeks vacation and took my tanks with me. They were in Hydro, current vis and O2 cleaned for nitrox. The dive shop wouldn't fill my tanks with nitrox without O2 cleaning them prior for $60 a tank. When I asked why, they started to mumble something about laws. When I told them it's BS as the tanks are O2 cleaned and marked as required by law, they changed the tune to the fact that it is store policy as they can not be sure how well the tanks were cleaned. Sucker

You were "the Sucker" for not telling them what they could do with their (repeat) O2 cleaning and finding another shop.

I must add that in my area we have Air tanks and since all nitrox is PP fill, so O2 clean means it is cleaned for oxygen service, not just enriched air.
I hope you are not confusing nitrox ready w/ O2 clean.

 

[aquaoren]

You were "the Sucker" for not telling them what they could do with their (repeat) O2 cleaning and finding another shop.

I must add that in my area we have Air tanks and since all nitrox is PP fill, so O2 clean means it is cleaned for oxygen service, not just enriched air.
I hope you are not confusing nitrox ready w/ O2 clean.

You're jumping to the conclusion that I let them touch my tanks. I told them exactly what I think of these practices and was about to march out of the shop when they offered to fill it with air. Since it was the only shop in town, I took the air fills.
How about taking that size 12 foot out of your size 10 mouth now?