Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Esprise Me]

Nope. When I taught high school social studies, the only class the seniors had to take in 12th grade was American Government, and I taught all those courses. Eventually I dumbed it down to where a third of the grade was seat time, a third was just turning in homework without it even having to be correct (just had to have a name and some scribbles), and a third was test scores. It should have been impossible to fail. But some kids still failed. At that point I got tired of dumbing things down, and upped the standards. The next term I told them they'd have six unit tests and a comprehensive final. Their grade would be based solely on test scores. They could come to class, and I'd be glad. They could do homework, and I'd comment on it, but only test scores would determine their grade. And scoring was from points possible, not from the highest score earned. Their first unit test was over a hundred questions. Almost none of it was memorize and regurgitate, it was mostly. all application of concepts. If someone wanted to retake, they could, although then it became an essay test. I was worried there would be many class fails. But after that test, they buckled down and there were actually fewer failures. And a lot more learning/understanding. You know things are going well when a student launches into questions about how the merge features of an open and closed primary, and suggests better ways to do things from out of their own head, without even having been asked to do so. Anyway, that's public school.

Now, this may seem off topic. But as I think back over my scuba classes, they were all kinda how I was functioning as a teacher at the most dumbed down level. None were at the higher level. Maybe someone in there wasn't pencil whipping people through the scuba classes, but that would be pretty unusual.

I think it would be great to challenge OW students to think through some problems. I brought this up once as teaching contingency planning, i.e. what if you're low on air but your buddy ignores your signal to ascend--do you stay with him or ascend alone, or what if you reach your safety stop depth with 500 psi--do you skip the safety stop or dip into your reserve? Often the right answer may be "it depends," and a discussion of factors to consider could be a great teaching opportunity.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Nope. When I taught high school social studies, the only class the seniors had to take in 12th grade was American Government, and I taught all those courses at the local public high school. For awhile it seemed I was being too hard. Eventually I dumbed it down to where a third of the grade was seat time, a third was just turning in homework without it even having to be correct (just had to have a name and some scribbles), and a third was test scores. It should have been impossible to fail. But some kids still failed. At that point I got tired of dumbing things down, and upped the standards. The next term I told them they'd have six unit tests and a comprehensive final. Their grade would be based solely on test scores. They could come to class, and I'd be glad. They could do homework, and I'd comment on it, but only test scores would determine their grade. And scoring was from points possible, not from the highest score earned. Their first unit test was over a hundred questions. Almost none of it was memorize and regurgitate, it was mostly all application of concepts. Took me a long time to draft that test. If someone wanted to retake a test, they could, although then it became an essay test. I was worried there would be many class fails. But after that unit one test shocked them, they buckled down and there were actually fewer failures than under my dumbed down system. And a lot more learning/understanding. You know things are going well when a student launches into questions about how to merge features of an open and closed primary election, and suggests better ways to do things from out of their own head, without even having been asked to do so. Anyway, that's public school.

Now, that may seem off topic. But as I think back over my scuba classes and relate the two experiences, the scuba classes I took were all kind of like how I was functioning as a teacher at the most dumbed down level. None were at the higher level. Maybe one of the instructors in my scuba classes wasn't in there wasn't pencil whipping people through the scuba classes, but that would be pretty unusual.

Not off topic. Whatever bar you set is the bar they will shoot for.

 

[Micheal]

Is this still true today? When I ask this question of teachers and really drill down, it’s fact retention and memorization, at least for the public schools.

those good teachers that teach critical thinking? They are off at private schools.

There are some good critical thinking teachers left, not many. I work as an HS admin, of our best teachers on campus, most are Coaches or hold a degree other then education. Denver is working remove History from the Curriculum all together. Here is Central Florida we are finally putting Phonics' back into the curriculum. The Education Map, is really all over the place.

All lot of the problems are with the AP exams. They expect students to pass with a minimum 3 some schools want a 5. Funny thing is, the avg College student could not score a 2. AP World History is a lot of memorization among others.

As a single father I taught my daughter Critical Thinking, till she was blue in the face. This actually hurt her in Med School, where 75% is memorizing what drug to use in what situation. According to her, 90% of Med students Sketchy Medical and test banks to make it though school, my daughter struggled here. However in her 3rd year rotations, she was received several letters of recommendation for performance an an attending Doctors level. Her friends have none.

Corvette Masters will not let you work on a car until you have 5 years interning with him. Owner says good Mechanics are hard to find, another reason the Automotive Industry is going to black box servicing. You have to have an internet connection not to activate a new windows switch on the new Corvette.

I would love to see IDC be invite only, but then would be have enough instructors if you did. I had bad experiences with some LDS's and would never have gotten into IDC. Yet I am one of the only instructors in my area that teach never touch the bottom.

I do think the Zero to Instructor approach is wrong, and should not be allowed. A minimum of 100 dives is possible, but to do it in 60 days, no. I think a minimum of 2 years of diving should be installed, 5 for Tech.

 

[Scuba Client]

[MOD EDIT]

So what technique am I against? Any and all harassment style training. That only has applicable for military personal. It has no application to a recreational activity. The only exception if you dive in the Sea of Cortez at night and you want to fight Humboldt squid, but you stand a good chance losing your first battle. People like Scott Cassell have their own encounters recorded. I'm not preparing anyone for anything like that.

What should a DM know? A DM should learn to identify and respond to both active and inactive panic. A DM should be an expert in proper weighting (including distribution) and evaluating a customer's shortcomings as a diver. They should be friendly, encouraging, and insightful. They should be able to provide tips that compensates for the typical inadequate training that plagues this industry.

The last thing a DM should have is a macho attitude.

Diving stops being fun when an incompetent Divemaster/Instructor inadvertently kills their client. Families are destroyed. Businesses fold. It's OK to deviate from the training schedule to make you a better diver. Training agencies have protocols in place which are to be followed, although there is diver discretion. Experienced divers would understand this. Now, let's get to some unorthodox training techniques. There is nothing in the training manual that says you have to rip the mask off a trainee Divemaster, or rip the regulator out of their mouth.
His is an anecdote:
A successful Asian dive operator hires a beautiful Divemistress to guide the Chinese OW divers visiting his island paradise. Her credentials check out. Then one day an out-of-air Chinese diver snatches the Divemistress' primary regulator and a struggle ensues (smothering her from getting her occy). The Chinese diver drowns. The dive operator breathes a sigh of relief knowing he can never be sued.(only Americans can sue US companies). Instead the training agency disenfranchises him from using the PADI name. His reputation among Chinese tourists goes viral, and he must now close his business. If only he had tested the Divemistress' response to incidents beforehand.

 

[dlofting]

Because they would likely be placing students on their knees. They wouldn't discuss weight distribution to get students trimmed right off the bat. They wouldn't discuss techniques for getting students comfortable.

It isn't rocket science, but they are typically not taught that in their IDC and not tested for it in their IE.

Hence giving them a second chance on an apprenticeship. Some instructors want to teach the way they learned in their IDC and refuse to pursue improving their teaching ability. Others hunger for it. I want to work with people with a big appetite.

Thanks for the reply. We do look at things differently, but I understand where you're coming from.

My tendency would be to write a job description that included all those things you're looking for in an instructor so, hopefully, people who do things differently and don't want to change don't take up your time in an interview. I might also add that instructors who don't qualify but are certified and willing to learn could be considered for an initial role as an instructor intern.

That said I'm coming from a completely different business world and what I've suggested is maybe overkill for a SCUBA instructor position.

 

[Manatee Diver]

The Chinese diver drowns. The dive operator breathes a sigh of relief knowing he can never be sued.(only Americans can sue US companies). Instead the training agency disenfranchises him from using the PADI name.

X for doubt.

You need a US lawyer, but foreigners can sue US companies they do it all the time. Maybe the family thought it was like Chinese courts where foreigners have a near zero chance of winning against a Chinese National? That is the only way that it could make sense. Also PADI rarely takes action, one of the key elements for the claim against PADI in this case was that they didn't even investigate the prior death that happened with Gull Scuba.

 

[Scuba Client]

Let's be specific. What agency took away his certification, and what agency got him a C-card?

The reason I ask is I am pretty sure I know the case you are talking about. There was a lot of outrage about it, because there was a strong sense that he did it intentionally--the student was a girlfriend who had just broken up with him. It happened in Grand Cenote, just outside of Tulum. The outrage that was generated was because his teaching status was NOT terminated by IANTD--he just went on teaching for that agency. (I write cave diving accident reports for the National Speleological Society.)

I checked one of my training manuals and this is verbatim: Master drysuit in recreational diving before using one in technical diving. At least 20 dives is a conservative minimum before using your drysuit for tech diving. PADI dry suit course recommended. IANTD have a hall of shame for divers that have been terminated. PADI would need a mile to list theirs. Rest assured, I'm not discrediting any agency. Although when I did my training SSI were using PADI manuals.

 

[Scuba Client]

X for doubt.

You need a US lawyer, but foreigners can sue US companies they do it all the time. Maybe the family thought it was like Chinese courts where foreigners have a near zero chance of winning against a Chinese National? That is the only way that it could make sense. Also PADI rarely takes action, one of the key elements for the claim against PADI in this case was that they didn't even investigate the prior death that happened with Gull Scuba.

The point I'm making is Asian dive operators and small villages rely on tourist dollars. One incompetent Divemaster/ Instructor can ruin their livelihood. Who can afford a US lawyer?

 

[KevinNM]

If you put aside any form of competency/skill testing the only way you can assess a potential employee you don't know is by what they have done in the past. You can sometimes determine their depth of experience in an interview but there's no way to reliably assess competence. New grads, even those who have passed a certification exam, have very short resumes, so you're going mostly on personal fit, which usually comes down to whether you like the person or not. This is why hiring is essentially a crapshoot.

A guy who makes a living advising corporations said he asks his clients executives ‘how many of you have hired some who looked good and was terrible’ and then ‘how many of you have hired someone that you were thinking was probably not going to work out but turned out to be superb?’

Everyone in the room answers yes to both.

it’s hard.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Diving stops being fun when an incompetent Divemaster/Instructor inadvertently kills their client. Families are destroyed. Businesses fold. It's OK to deviate from the training schedule to make you a better diver. Training agencies have protocols in place which are to be followed, although there is diver discretion. Experienced divers would understand this. Now, let's get to some unorthodox training techniques. There is nothing in the training manual that says you have to rip the mask off a trainee Divemaster, or rip the regulator out of their mouth.
His is an anecdote:
A successful Asian dive operator hires a beautiful Divemistress to guide the Chinese OW divers visiting his island paradise. Her credentials check out. Then one day an out-of-air Chinese diver snatches the Divemistress' primary regulator and a struggle ensues (smothering her from getting her occy). The Chinese diver drowns. The dive operator breathes a sigh of relief knowing he can never be sued.(only Americans can sue US companies). Instead the training agency disenfranchises him from using the PADI name. His reputation among Chinese tourists goes viral, and he must now close his business. If only he had tested the Divemistress' response to incidents beforehand.

Did you read your own post before you clicked "post reply"? You stated that the divemaster was smothered by the customer and unable to get her alternate air source. She was responding just fine going for her alternate that rather than attempting to fight for her primary. But she was overpowered by the panicking client. This is a horrible tragedy.

And your [CENSORED] solution does NOTHING to address weaknesses in the system.

Do you remember how I said a dive pro needs to be observant of customers? To notice active/inactive panic? To compensate for inadequately trained divers? That's going to do a lot more to keep dive pros safe than testing how they react having a reg ripped out of their mouth as your own story shows this is inadequate.

I have no idea what "her credentials checked out" means other than someone certified her and she had no QA issues.

Your anecdote points out two things. First, many "certified" divers don't actually meet performance requirements and are dangerous. Second, dive pros are insufficiently trained to identify and deal with such dangerous clients.

[MOD DELETION]