Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Scuba Client]

If you pulled that with me, I'd likely make you regret it when I figured it out. You'd never knowingly give someone a broken set of gear again, that's for sure.

I would fail you if you went to the surface, period. From your reply I don't think you would figure it out. A good Divemaster is to be tested. I cannot risk clients for posers.

 

[Griffo]

I don't think I can add much to the commentary on the actual incident except to say that the poor girl was never going to get out of that lake unassisted. What a horrendous set of events.

I don't think this is a valid argument. Agencies can have online academic exams that ensure that instructors/DMs haven't forgotten the science of diving, are following standards, etc..

Tests for actual skills should have video based which get uploaded and agencies sample check.

There are ways to defeat teaching and then cheaters continue to innovate (such as having someone else taking the online test for them).

While I am not advocating for NTSB type investigations for such incidents, I do believe agencies investigating themselves these incidents to see how their systems can be improved. In some cases, people can still flout the rules and people will continue to die, but hopefully in smaller numbers.

I'm really surprised that the agencies haven't picked up their game. In my role, i have to undergo multiple online refresher courses every year, that require me to test-out to pass. This covers changes in regulations, best practice as well as testing my basic knowledge.

There are agencies out there that constantly re-test their instructors, and also ones that require all courses to be booked through them. This negates the ability of an unqualified or disbarred instructor booking a course.

I'm not sure why the bigger agencies don't seem to feel the need to implement these style of checks.

 

[Scuba Client]

I have three questions:
1. Who has dropped standards? What standards did they drop?
2. Who is selling C-cards?
3. If your potential DM holds his or her breath on that panicked ascent to the surface. has a CAGE, and dies, how will you explain your unorthodox testing procedure? (You do know, don't you, that a joint PADI/DAN study found that CAGE following a panicked ascent was the most common preventable cause of scuba deaths?)

PADI offers 5 specialty courses for their instructors. Any open water diver who has read PADI's Adventures in Diving would have known about drysuit training. No one should attempt to use a drysuit during a course without having at least 20 shallow shore dives using a drysuit. Buddy checks weren't carried out. Eg, drysuit inflator hose missing. In Asia the 200 metres swim isn't adhered to. Reason many Asians cannot swim but this in no way should disqualify them from obtaining a c-card if they prove themselves in skills and knowledge. There are many tech/rec instructors who don't have what it takes. I know of one particular case where an Advanced Trimix Instructor failed a diver, who then bought his c-card from a mutual friend. Instructors who are responsible for diver deaths prove my point.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI offers 5 specialty courses for their instructors. Any open water diver who has read PADI's Adventures in Diving would have known about drysuit training. No one should attempt to use a drysuit during a course without having at least 20 shallow shore dives using a drysuit. Buddy checks weren't carried out. Eg, drysuit inflator hose missing. In Asia the 200 metres swim isn't adhered to. Reason many Asians cannot swim but this in no way should disqualify them from obtaining a c-card if they prove themselves in skills and knowledge. There are many tech/rec instructors who don't have what it takes. I know of one particular case where an Advanced Trimix Instructor failed a diver, who then bought his c-card from a mutual friend. Instructors who are responsible for diver deaths prove my point.

Well, it's good to see all those concrete facts that we can check out if we have any questions. Otherwise we would think you were making everything up.

Speaking of that, let's look at this: "No one should attempt to use a drysuit during a course without having at least 20 shallow shore dives using a drysuit." Is that your opinion, or are you saying ti is a standard? If you are saying it is a standard, well, I'm having trouble finding it and will need you to help me. I wonder how that works in the OW certification course, since students are allowed to use drysuits during their certification guides, provided that they have had a confined water introduction first.

You also said, "There are many tech/rec instructors who don't have what it takes. I know of one particular case where an Advanced Trimix Instructor failed a diver, who then bought his c-card from a mutual friend." So how does a failed student purchasing a card from a friend (how???) prove the instructor who failed him does not have what it takes?

 

[Scuba Client]

Well, it's good to see all those concrete facts that we can check out if we have any questions. Otherwise we would think you were making everything up.

Speaking of that, let's look at this: "No one should attempt to use a drysuit during a course without having at least 20 shallow shore dives using a drysuit." Is that your opinion, or are you saying ti is a standard? If you are saying it is a standard, well, I'm having trouble finding it and will need you to help me. I wonder how that works in the OW certification course, since students are allowed to use drysuits during their certification guides, provided that they have had a confined water introduction first.

You also said, "There are many tech/rec instructors who don't have what it takes. I know of one particular case where an Advanced Trimix Instructor failed a diver, who then bought his c-card from a mutual friend." So how does a failed student purchasing a card from a friend (how???) prove the instructor who failed him does not have what it takes?

I have an old version of PADI's Tec/Rec manual and it states at least 20 dives before commencing further training. I have been told and seen first hand divers nearly coming to grief with air trapped in the legs. Without help these panicked divers would have drowned. One of my mentors stated he failed a would be Tech Instructor who bought his c-card from someone in the know. People buy driving licenses when they fail the road test.

 

[Scuba Client]

Well, it's good to see all those concrete facts that we can check out if we have any questions. Otherwise we would think you were making everything up.

Speaking of that, let's look at this: "No one should attempt to use a drysuit during a course without having at least 20 shallow shore dives using a drysuit." Is that your opinion, or are you saying ti is a standard? If you are saying it is a standard, well, I'm having trouble finding it and will need you to help me. I wonder how that works in the OW certification course, since students are allowed to use drysuits during their certification guides, provided that they have had a confined water introduction first.

You also said, "There are many tech/rec instructors who don't have what it takes. I know of one particular case where an Advanced Trimix Instructor failed a diver, who then bought his c-card from a mutual friend." So how does a failed student purchasing a card from a friend (how???) prove the instructor who failed him does not have what it takes?

Another cave instructor who lost a student he had recently certified, left the cave and took his markers and guideline with him. She drowned and his teaching status was terminated. I was told he got another c-card elsewhere. Every nation has an equivalent standard. Not everyone uses US training agencies.

 

[CuzzA]

FWIW, and this may sound cynical, but we can increase training, et cetera all we want, but the world is still full of assholes and idiots. Incidents like this happen in all industries and our justice system works it out. You can not train ethics or good judgment. Some people are predisposed to screw up. I'm sure the instructor was taught all the rules she violated.

That is not an excuse for what happened here, it's just the reality of fallible and bad humans in positions they should not be in. We often don't find out they shouldn't have been in that position until the event happens. Fortunately in scuba diving it's pretty rare.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Part of Divemaster training schedule is to see how they react when their regulator is pulled from their mouth. If they fight you to take back the regulator, they fail, if they place the back up in their mouth they pass. They train dive leaders responsibly. They train OW divers inadequately.

What agency?

 

[Manatee Diver]

Ever seen a Navy SEAL training vid?

I have, but what most people don't see is all the safety measures put in place for those "hits."

1. They know it is coming
2. The instructors doing the hits are free diving so they have limited time to mess with the
3. There is a safety diver for every student getting hit, with an octo out ready to hand it over until the student is completely kitted up and swimming with the group.

 

[Scuba Client]

I have, but what most people don't see is all the safety measures put in place for those "hits."

1. They know it is coming
2. The instructors doing the hits are free diving so they have limited time to mess with the
3. There is a safety diver for every student getting hit, with an octo out ready to hand it over until the student is completely kitted up and swimming with the group.

Same applies to Divemaster training, you're ready or you're not.