Strobe dropping?

[packrat12]

Lines are great but.... Strobes are great but.... Compass is great but.... Depth/layout is great but... Progressive is great but...

The main point John makes is that there are short comings to every method of navigation in a wreck. Lines get cut, Strobes/lights fail, compass can have significant error, depth/layout is can be remembered wrong etc. Dependence on any one of these methods can be fatal, including a line. It is combining the use of some or all of the methods that John does stress. Blindly following a line is a recipe for disaster (as with any other method). Yes if I get a line failure it is like I never had a line, but if I am using other methods of navigation, the line failure may become unimportant. I know what depths to expect, what headings, which side of the wreck I am on due to the lines of the wreck, the silty area is where I have been, the flashing of a strobe is my exit....

I had the pleasure of taking John's Advanced Wreck course twice because of weather on the last day my first attempt, along with my Trimix training. He is a consistent and safety minded diver. I would honestly be more scared of an instructor that says "lines are the only way". We practiced several methods and my favorite, tactile through the wheelhouse. A great anecdote he used was where a diver said he got 250' into the Andrea Doria. How did the diver know this, because he had 250' of line. Did not know a single thing the wreck other than he got 250' in. I now look at wrecks by the room function. I plan on what room is coming up next. I try to get maps, deck plans etc. This is due to Johns training.

On all of my serious wreck dives, I use headings, depth, strobes, levels up or down and yes a line! And I have been in silt outs where the strobe was a comforting marker of our exit!

 

[DevonDiver]

Out of interest... does John do blacked mask training as part of his course?

Assuming yes, how do strobes help then?

 

[packrat12]

Out of interest... does John do blacked mask training as part of his course?

Assuming yes, how do strobes help then?

Yes he does. Please notice in my initial statement "Lines are great but.... Strobes are great but.... Compass is great but.... Depth/layout is great but... Progressive is great but..." that these are many of the tools we were taught. ANY of them can fail and reliance on any ONE of them is a recipe for disaster, including lines. The layout of the wreck used was so that we understood where we were without reference to lines. We practiced going through about 1/2 of a small wreck blacked out through fairly tight restrictions.

Sorry you appear to be focused on 1 method of wreck navigation. I was taught by John at least 5 methods and expected to employ several of them for any penetration as any of them can fail. John has proven experience and I consider him probably one of the best divers I have had the privilege of training or diving with!

 

[dberry]

We did at least 3 blackout mask drills when I took the course, including following a line in/out. And of course we laid line and then reeled it back up. He did not suggest a strobe was the be-all end-all, but as @packrat12 described in more detail, he drilled a multi-tool approach to any penetration.

 

[DevonDiver]

Sorry you appear to be focused on 1 method of wreck navigation. I was taught by John at least 5 methods...

Not at all.

Guideline is of most critical importance if visibility is lost...and a tactile, not visual, egress from the wreck is required.

It also plays a valuable role in team cohesion and a whole bunch of contingency protocols (as I teach it).

I'm merely clarifying how John teaches.. as I'm very interested in alternative perspectives from world class divers.

The initial posts ("cave diving in wrecks...") made it seem like John scorned guideline use. I didn't think that would be correct.

I also teach progressive penetration in wrecks, always using a guideline.

I've tried using strobes and glowsticks.. but I've found them problematic. They can be confusing. Turn a corner and they're gone. Drop too low, raise too high and they can be gone. They can be visible through the structure that isn't passable... tempting divers into dead ends and false hope routes.

Memorising layout is essential, but that takes multiple exposures to a wreck. It's ok if you're always diving the same wrecks. It's not so helpful for exploration / expedition diving.

I've lost several friends and acquaintances in wrecks. Entrapment or disorientation (no guideline) are the reasons.

As mentioned, in thousands of dives, I've never seen a guideline break. I won't say it can't happen, but if it did I'd suspect some fundamental errors on behalf of the divers.

Personally, I think that if someone feels safe entering a 'known' wreck without a guideline, then it's time to check yourself for complacency and overconfidence.

The only times I've had 'scares' on wreck penetrations has been on very familiar wrecks... vessels I've amounted literally hundreds, of extensive dives inside.

Just last year I had a fright... a real "oh sh_t" moment... a few minutes of disorientation... on a wreck that I've spent over 600 hours inside of.

The wrecks I dive frequently are very complex layout... and you simply couldn't find your way by feel or memory without sight. Even with sight, it'd be easy to make a critical mistake and get disorientated and lost...and there aren't many accessible exits.

I also deal with zero visibility on a regular basis. That has nothing to do with weak skills... but there are areas that can only be accessed by pushing through silted entrances.

Without visibility (zero means zero) its remarkably easy to get disorientated. Even if you're not, sometimes it's impossible to differentiate between one route and another. One mistake, one flawed memory, one self-doubt.. and it ALL falls apart.

From my experience, it takes one glitch to make you start doubting yourself. Once that happens things can/will spiral quickly.

Psychologically, a guideline is an incredibly powerful aid. Not a crutch.. an aid. There's a subtle difference... and it's not something that's easy to appreciate until you've had a real wake up call inside a wreck.

 

[DevonDiver]

.. I have been in silt outs where the strobe was a comforting marker of our exit!

Not much of a silt out then

 

[Jared0425]

I was in a bad silt out in an engine room and some dumba$$ activated the strobe and reflected all the particles in the water right into my face. Even when I closed my eyes I was still being blinded. But as Andy is preaching, know the wreck, the exits, and follow the line. Once back on the boat I almost rung the guys neck I was so pissed. Luckily it wasn't a deco dive as the wreck is shallow, but man did I feel the oh sh!t moment coming on.

 

[Texasguy]

JC's blackout mask is not 100% opaque. One can see strobes.

 

[DevonDiver]

JC's blackout mask is not 100% opaque. One can see strobes.

I've heard of "Black mask" drills, but never "slightly transparent mask" drills.

I guess it gives confidence in 'slightly silted' scenarios.....

 

[Akimbo]

Personally I would never bet my life on a piece of string. It might be OK in a cave but not in a wreck.