Still confused about lift

[dumpsterDiver]

A bigger wing is *never* the answer to being over weighted. If a diver is properly weighted the impacts of panic or a buoyancy device failure is quite small.

Tobin

You don't seem to be getting it... One reason to have excess capcaity in your BC is because other idiots are diving rigs that are too heavy and have no ditchable lead. In order to save them, with a minimal amount of effort, will require that the rescuer have excess capacity to haul them up.

This is an important consideration for me.

 

[buddhasummer]

A small wing is easier to vent, more streamlined, packs smaller and lighter. A bigger wing is more adaptable and it does have a bigger safety margin. Both true and valid recommendations.

Some put adaptability and safety margin at a higher priority than venting ability, streamline and packing size. Others, it's the opposite.

It's really not who is wrong or right. It's making a decision based on your own priorities. Some of us are gear junkies and we end up buying both.

Ain't that the truth, I have three complete rigs, drysuit, heavy wetsuit and travel rig. Clearly more money than sense.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2015 at 06:13 PM ----------

The problem here is Oxycheq wing. It just doesn't pack very well. My Halcyon Evolve 60lb pack smaller than my Oxycheq single wing. My Eclipse 30 pack much smaller than my Oxycheq single wing. I am sure DSS17 will pack smaller too, but not by much. I actually did have a DSS17 once. I used it a few time in Southeast Asian and left it with my cousin. I just don't use it enough to justifying owning one, and I really didn't feel it vent easier or any less drag than my Halcyon 30lb, at least not that I can notice. What I notice is on surface, my head is a lot higher above water

I've read this a few times, I think it depends on definition of "packs well". I currently dive Oxy wings and travel dive a fair bit I just lay it flat or sometimes I remove elbow and roll, must say I've never thought "I wish this wing packed better". Of course if I had a wing that did "pack better" I might change my opinion, I've just never really considered them an issue or seen them as not packing well.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2015 at 06:17 PM ----------

I have never own a DR25 wing, so can't comment on its venting ability. But for Oxycheq, the issue is their inner bladder design. The inner bladder is a lot bigger than the shell. It is folded inside on all edge. See attached picture. I can see air gets trapped in the fold. Compare my Oxycheq vs my Halcyon, the H vent noticeably easier and quicker. I unless the wing is ridiculously big, the venting ability has more to do with the design.

Overall, I must say I am happy with Oxycheq wing. It is very tough, decent dive. But DSS and Halcyon definitely design better wings

I own a 30, 40 and 18 Oxy, for me the 30 vents well, the 18 effortlessly, the 40 not so much. I'd def buy a 30 and 18 again if they got stolen, the 40 I'd probably look elsewhere. I've had them apart and the inner bladder on the 40 is very large relative to outer shell, it has more folds than an elephants ass.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You don't seem to be getting it... One reason to have excess capcaity in your BC is because other idiots are diving rigs that are too heavy and have no ditchable lead. In order to save them, with a minimal amount of effort, will require that the rescuer have excess capacity to haul them up.

This is an important consideration for me.

Er, uh, well not really. When I *start* a dive in buoyant suit and single tank I will be weighted so I'm eye level with *NO* gas in my wing. That leaves 100% of my wings capacity to deal with any number of contingencies.

Of course my rescue training always involved using the victim's BC, not using mine as a lift bag for both of us.....

Tobin

 

[eelnoraa]

I've read this a few times, I think it depends on definition of "packs well". I currently dive Oxy wings and travel dive a fair bit I just lay it flat or sometimes I remove elbow and roll, must say I've never thought "I wish this wing packed better". Of course if I had a wing that did "pack better" I might change my opinion, I've just never really considered them an issue or seen them as not packing well.

Definition of "pack well" is not needed if there are comparisons. Between H eclipse, H evolve (huge wing), Oxycheq MkV, Oxycheq is the harder to pack, stiffest shell. H wing just fold nicely down nicely. In fact, if you take off elbow, you can roll it into even smaller.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You don't seem to be getting it... One reason to have excess capcaity in your BC is because other idiots are diving rigs that are too heavy and have no ditchable lead. In order to save them, with a minimal amount of effort, will require that the rescuer have excess capacity to haul them up.

This is an important consideration for me.

Can you perhaps describe how these "other idiots" manage to configure their gear they are both grossly overweighted and without any ditchable ballast. Should be pretty simple if it is something you routinely plan for……..

Tobin

 

[buddhasummer]

Definition of "pack well" is not needed if there are comparisons. Between H eclipse, H evolve (huge wing), Oxycheq MkV, Oxycheq is the harder to pack, stiffest shell. H wing just fold nicely down nicely. In fact, if you take off elbow, you can roll it into even smaller.

Point taken. Fortunately I have no comparison so believe my wing packs well, ignorance is bliss.

 

[halocline]

Just had a great conversation with Tobin, and I see a DSS 20 in my future - still deciding on ss or kydex depending on my travel weight constraints. Thanks to all for your input.

If you're using 18 lbs of lead with a jacket BC and AL80, get the steel plate. Its always best to buy dive gear for how it performs while diving, and the 6lbs of ballast will make a big difference. You can put lead on the cambands to approximate it but it's not as good as having that ballast evenly spread out over your back.

If you're looking to reduce luggage weight, you might consider the weight of your suitcase. Some people fret about getting the lightest dive gear even if it represents a compromise in performance, and then put it in a 10-15 lb suitcase.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Can you perhaps describe how these "other idiots" manage to configure their gear they are both grossly overweighted and without any ditchable ballast. Should be pretty simple if it is something you routinely plan for……..

Tobin

Easy, a thin guy with minimal wetsuit, a heavy steel tank with over 120 cu-ft capacity, a pony bottle that is a little negative and no ditchable lead and a problem at the start of the dive when they are deep and the tank is full.

I've repeated now SEVERAL times that the excess bouyancy is useful to rescue an over weighted diver who has a bc failure and has no ditchable lead. Then you make reference to using the victim's BC.

Now there are people who use DOUBLE steel tanks in warm water, with zero ditchable lead too.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Easy, a thin guy with minimal wetsuit, a heavy steel tank with over 120 cu-ft capacity, a pony bottle that is a little negative and no ditchable lead and a problem at the start of the dive when they are deep and the tank is full.

I've repeated now SEVERAL times that the excess bouyancy is useful to rescue an over weighted diver who has a bc failure and has no ditchable lead. Then you make reference to using the victim's BC.

Now there are people who use DOUBLE steel tanks in warm water, with zero ditchable lead too.

Let's take a look at your example in detail.


A full 120 is about -11, and your "pony" is maybe -1

A 3mm suit is ~+4 and your "other idiot" is no doubt using some sort of BC. Typical jackets are ~+3

That leaves your "other idiot" about 5 lbs negative when his cylinder is full.

Are you suggesting that:

1) You can't swim up 5-10 lbs if necessary?

2) If you are properly weighted at recreational depths that your BC won't offer 5-10 lbs of unused capacity? If you follow my recommendations you would.

3) You plan for Overweighted Divers with no ditchable ballast *and* a failed BC *and* a full tank? Really?

I carry a fire extinguisher in every vehicle I drive, and a first aide kit.

I don't however drive one of these



Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Let's take a look at your example in detail.


A full 120 is about -11, and your "pony" is maybe -1

A 3mm suit is ~+4 and your "other idiot" is no doubt using some sort of BC. Typical jackets are ~+3

That leaves your "other idiot" about 5 lbs negative when his cylinder is full.

Are you suggesting that:

1) You can't swim up 5-10 lbs if necessary?

2) If you are properly weighted at recreational depths that your BC won't offer 5-10 lbs of unused capacity? If you follow my recommendations you would.

3) You plan for Overweighted Divers with no ditchable ballast *and* a failed BC *and* a full tank? Really?

I carry a fire extinguisher in every vehicle I drive, and a first aide kit.

I don't however drive one of these

View attachment 208537

Tobin

You seem to be taking a mocking tone with me, but that is OK. Yes I want to have excess capacity to handle emergencies. The draw backs of diving with 10-15 lbs of "excess" lift capacity are minimal and for me, they give me much more flexibility. I can use the excess lift to rescue a diver (as described) WITHOUT kicking or exerting myself, (I recently shot a video of that scenario happening- but the diver took off for the surface and he should have sought my help) _It is not theoretical.

I like to have excess capacity to recover weight belts. I have found probably 20 or 25 over the years. it is so nice to be able to just put the weightbelt on, inflate the BC a little and continue the dive. I have used the excess capacity to fisght fish toward the surface when scuba hunting. A strong fish cn pull down over 30 lbs of force easily! So having some lift capacity is a benefit. In an emergency on the surface with a panicked diver, I will try to ditch their lead, but it is nice to have a good bit of lift to really hold them up and well out of the water. It does help to calm them down.