Spare air or pony

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SCUBA rule #1 Never stop breathing
SCUBA rule #2 you wil never run out of air with full lungs.
That being said, one "full" breath at 130 or where ever will get you to the surface. Boiling some but alive. "Empty" lungs will be full if you ascend some, depth dependant of course. Heck, they will be full several times from 130.
 
Mike that was a good post, people definently arent taken into consideration the expanding air in lungs if you are treating the istuation as a CESA situation.
 
String:
Just saw this on their website that made me laugh

1.6 litres per breath?! Not even an infant has that low a lung volume.

Average person breathing normally uses 3.5 to 4. A full lung is about 6.

The nitrox version is really really making me laugh. Yeah 20 seconds of a nitrox mix will make a REAL difference to the no doubt rapid ascent you just had because you were stupid enough to get OOA with no backup.

I certainly appreciated the math and the logic answers you have provided in the spare air debate. However "Stupid enough to get OOA with no backup" is not very constructive, when someone is concidering this as a solution.

Stuff happens, hoses blow, and sometimes people cant afford all the new toys at once. Of course good skills training and practice is your first line of defence. Having an OOA experience or an HP hose blow might change your mind about these redundancies, or seeing an accident...

Any form of redundancy is better than none. It is not a crutch when used as advised and in emergencies. That being said you guys have shed some excellent light on the subject. Pool toy, Bond Gadget or Otherwise, I commend the poster and the people answering for supporting redundancy and safety... But lets keep it constructive and educational.

I dove with a "diving instructor" from the central UK as a guest on our boat in St Thomas for a few days. On one of our last dives, he did a back roll off the gunwhale of the boat and appeared right under the keel. I sat watching this from 15 ft. as i waited for my ears to equalize. He panicked, forgot he had a regulator in his mouth and spat it out as he clawed his way around the hull to the surface to breath... So much for redundancy...

And we dove in August in Vancouver with a company we will NEVER use again, and one of the divemasters decided to dive in the currents of Howe Sound off of West Vancouver with a double tank cave diving tech rig...... Redundant... But...... Dangerous under the circumstances.

All the extra weight, hydrodynamics, and his smoking habit and belly made him unable to swim against the current and he was getting dragged away from the stern line. All the others, including my wife with 14 dives under her belt were able to get there safely... And we had to go get him... So... Perhaps a proper evaluation of the conditions and currents etc would have been more prudent than double tanks???

Not panicking and staying calm is of primary importance so you can get to your redundant air source.

An disturbing trend in the outdoor industry following this example is the "Extreme Backpacking" "Ultra Lightweight" trends that have people summiting mountains with no extra fuel or extra gloves... So if they are delayed, they cant make water to fend off AMS, or if they drop a glove and it blows away they lose a finger or two to frostbite...

Keep safe out there people...
 
Just wanted to compliment you on the excellent post.

Bill51:
Putting on my Nomex underware, I’m going to challenge many of the assumptions made in calculations here.

While total lung capacity can be in the neighborhood of 6 liters, I know very few people who can reach a vital capacity of 4.8 liters and according to my measurements over the past few months with friends, fellow divers, and students my vital capacity of 4.5 liters is higher than anyone else I’ve tested with my Voldyne inspiration exerciser. Most people are turning funny colors before they are able to inspire more than 3 to 3.5 liters. Typical predictive ranges run from a 58” tall 20 year old male at 2 liters to a 78” tall 20 year old male at 4 liters with it dropping considerably for females or older persons. Normal respiration is only about .5 liters per breath and I’ve calculated that a upping my respiration while diving to about 1 liter per breath with 11 to 12 breaths per minute yields a SAC of about .389 CFM, which is very close to the .42 to .45 CFM I typically see diving. Most people are shocked the first time they find out how big a breath 1 to 1.5 liters really is.

If we assume that typically the Spare Air only gets filled to 2750 psi and at 99’ we can’t use the last 100 psi, that leaves us with only 2.65 CF (75 liters) usable at depth and when adjusted to sea level equivalent that would be .66 CF (18.75 liters). That would translate into about 18 normal diving breaths or 30 normal surface type breaths or about 1 minute 20 seconds at depth, which converts back very close to the 5 minutes 30 seconds I got off a Spare Air at the surface last time I checked.

When a diver runs out of air at depth 2 things happen to compound the problem and increase their anxiety while looking for their buddy and comprehending what’s happened. The first is they are typically left with well under a normal lung fill of air, and if they’re a liter short of air in their lungs they’re caught 2.2 pounds heavier than normal with no way to get positively buoyant. Reality is that most vacation divers vary from 5’ to 15’ away from their buddies on dives, and with a normal vacation diver swim rate it will take 10 to 15 seconds for them to find and catch up with their buddy 15’ away after about 5 seconds to comprehend the problem. Deeply exhale and than don’t inhale for 20 seconds and you’ll see how quickly you start to feel CO2 buildup and how high your anxiety level goes. If a Spare Air only gives a diver 1 breath it’s enough to keep them neutrally buoyant and cut the amount of time they have to be out of air before they reach their buddy from 20 seconds or more to less than 10 seconds – which will greatly reduce the tendency to panic that can be the real killer in cases like this. It also reduces the stress of having to make a split second decision as to whether it is best to get to a buddy 20 seconds away or to make an OOA emergency ascent.

One complaint from many vacation divers is the weight of all the equipment they have to carry to the boat, walk to the water with, and climb back on the boat with and a Spare Air is typically 8-10 pounds lighter than even a 13CF pony and doesn’t require additional techniques for entry or exit from the water. The big complaint about Spare Air units in this thread is that they’re inadequate to make a solo ascent, but in the half dozen times I’ve seen them used over the years not one person made an ascent with it, but they did easily and calmly get to their buddy to ascend with them – and without the Spare Air they might have been forced to ascend without air on their own.

I won’t argue that a Spare Air is any substitute for an adequately sized pony bottle for the types of diving many people here do, but we’re doing a disservice to the larger diving community by claiming there is no useful purpose for them and that people are better off without one than using one for what meets their requirements – not the requirements of the minority of hardcore divers on this board. If our purpose here is to be elitist snobs that don’t want casual recreational vacation divers to participate in the sport than by all means we shouldn’t allow anyone to board a dive boat without a 40CF pony or doubles on a BP/W with an HID light. Otherwise we need to realize that there are plenty of competent divers that would find the sport losing much of it’s appeal if they had to lug a pony bottle around to feel comfortable (or accepted) – and for the application many use a Spare Air for it does add a significant safety margin for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes
 
freedom your definently right with people getting caught up in the wrong aspects of saftey, I mean hey i'm watching Open Water right now and I havent even seen shark attacks discussed in this thread.
No i'm just kidding, but seriously that is a good point.
 
Cheekymonkey:
freedom your definently right with people getting caught up in the wrong aspects of saftey, I mean hey i'm watching Open Water right now and I havent even seen shark attacks discussed in this thread.
No i'm just kidding, but seriously that is a good point.
So the question then should be if a spare air is better than a pony bottle at defending against shark attacks. While the pony has more mass one could probably swing the spare air faster underwater and control it better.
 
Who snuck the shark into my serious discussion! Let me show you how to deal with sharks and threadjackers!

You guys have it all wrong.. You take out the spare air... Quickdraw style... Point the bottom at the shark... Take out your honking Tarzan wannabe SEAL dive knife.... and butt-strike the regulator off the tank.. A-Team/MacGyver style.... You have just punctured said shark with underwater rocket...

All while OOA....

(Disclaimer - For the lawyers out there - This is a Joke. Freedom Film Productions Inc., Jason, and the gang in no way advocate the harming of sharks, trying things seen on the A-team, or using a spare air or pony bottle for a weapon....)
 
www.freedomfilm.com:
Who snuck the shark into my serious discussion! Let me show you how to deal with sharks and threadjackers!

You guys have it all wrong.. You take out the spare air... Quickdraw style... Point the bottom at the shark... Take out your honking Tarzan wannabe SEAL dive knife.... and butt-strike the regulator off the tank.. A-Team/MacGyver style.... You have just punctured said shark with underwater rocket...

All while OOA....

(Disclaimer - For the lawyers out there - This is a Joke. Freedom Film Productions Inc., Jason, and the gang in no way advocate the harming of sharks, trying things seen on the A-team, or using a spare air or pony bottle for a weapon....)
Could we see a training film on that?
 
ok. its 4am and i got bored so drew up a spreadsheet of various bailout options and the time.

Ive used 25 litres/minute SAC because thats what all the agencies recommend to use for dive planning. Note, in a stressful situation this figure can double or even triple so you may want to halve those times to get a more realistic figure.

sacs.jpg


Its metric only as thats the easiest for me to understand at this time of night/morning and should be correct unless ive mistyped somewhere.
Assumes all tanks are filled to 200bar (2940psi) because thats roughly what it should be.
Table shows time at that specific depth. Obviously you'd be ascending so get a little more out of it but not a lot if you had to take a breath or two at depth first (especially with the spare airs).
 

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