Sony RX100VA vs Olympus E-M10 IV for a beginner

[keeperguy64]

I'm looking to get into photography for an upcoming trip and have been trying to decide on first setup that I can grow with. I started by considering a TG7 (or 6) setup but am thinking that the small sensor and lack of manual control means I'll probably be itching to upgrade in not too long. Looking around it seems like the next step up is either the EM10IV or the RX100VA (the VII is out of stock everywhere I can find). I'm also open to other options I haven't found yet!

Some requirements/goals for the setup
* Relatively compact - some of the places have low luggage size/weight restrictions
* Good for wide angle photos. I'm less interested in macro photos for now.
* Friendly enough to a beginner that I'll actually get some keepers early in my learning progress.
* Budget $6000 for everything (camera, housing, strobe(s), arms, etc.)

The EM10IV seems way more flexible with it's interchangeable lenses. However, the Sony is smaller (easier to travel with) and has phase detection AF which I understand to be superior to the Olympus. I've also read that wet-lenses are as good as air lenses which might make the changeable lenses on the Olympus less valuable?

 

[grantmac]

Consider an A6600/6700 as well

 

[tursiops]

* Relatively compact - some of the places have low luggage size/weight restrictions

Most of your bulk and weight will NOT be the camera but rather strobes, batteries, trays, etc.

* Good for wide angle photos. I'm less interested in macro photos for now.

You can always add maroc wet lens later.

* Friendly enough to a beginner that I'll actually get some keepers early in my learning progress.

Might be tough. Unless you have good basic photo knowledg you've got a lot to learn.

* Budget $6000 for everything (camera, housing, strobe(s), arms, etc.)

Might be tough, but doable. Just buy the critical pieces now and add later.

The EM10IV seems way more flexible with it's interchangeable lenses.

Yes, but you point out correctly that wet lenses can do a great job. If you were mainly interested in maco then a good macro lens is great....but you are not.

However, the Sony is smaller (easier to travel with)

The camera itself is the least of your weight and bulk.

and has phase detection AF which I understand to be superior to the Olympus

Very nice, but mostly helpful for macro and fast fish. Wide angle scenery is easy for focusing.

wet-lenses are as good as air lenses which might make the changeable lenses on the Olympus less valuable?

True. Although, the 14-42mm "standard zoom" on the Olympus plus a good wet wideangle and a wet macro lens will do almost everything well.

 

[keeperguy64]

Most of your bulk and weight will NOT be the camera but rather strobes, batteries, trays, etc.

You can always add maroc wet lens later.

Might be tough. Unless you have good basic photo knowledg you've got a lot to learn.

Might be tough, but doable. Just buy the critical pieces now and add later.

Yes, but you point out correctly that wet lenses can do a great job. If you were mainly interested in maco then a good macro lens is great....but you are not.

The camera itself is the least of your weight and bulk.

Very nice, but mostly helpful for macro and fast fish. Wide angle scenery is easy for focusing.

True. Although, the 14-42mm "standard zoom" on the Olympus plus a good wet wideangle and a wet macro lets will do almost everything well.

Thanks for the answers! Sounds like you would recommend the Olympus over the Sony then?

Which pieces would you call critical? Camera and housing (obviously), tray, arm, strobe? Would you say a wide-angle wet lens is one of those critical parts?

 

[tursiops]

Thanks for the answers! Sounds like you would recommend the Olympus over the Sony then?

Which pieces would you call critical? Camera and housing (obviously), tray, arm, strobe? Would you say a wide-angle wet lens is one of those critical parts?

I have no experience with the Sony, but many of my friends have them and are happy with them.
Don't skimp on the housing; Nauticam if you can swing it. Like driving a Porsche rather than a Honda.
One strobe is critical, two is nice but more difficult, heavier, bulkier, and depending on the kinds of pictures you want to take can maybe wait, if at all. Tray and two-piece arm with clamps. You can skimp on the arms but not on the clamps.
If you like wide angle, a good wet one is great. Much better (IMHO) than a special lens and dome. The WWL lens is very expensive and very good.
You'll get many more opinions on your posts; don't go by just mine!

 

[Nemrod]

My dislike of Sony cameras is increasing daily. The RX100 series has no manual strobe capability, it always fires a preflash which consumes battery. And slows the response down. The A6XXX series is crippled with a 1/160 flash X-sync shutter speed and also has no manual flash without pre-flash. And it is clunky.

My suggestion, and I just bought one, the Nauticam/Canon R50. The hybrid (compact camera virtues with APS-C mirrorless imaging power) mirrorless system without an interchangeable port intended to live in the Nauticam universe of water contact optics. It is meant to use the outstanding WWL-1 (130 degree FOV, full zoom through, focus at the dome), the WWL-C (120 degree FOV, full zoom through, focus to the dome) and the macro diopters CMC-1 and CMC-2 and the EMWL macro and wide angle (150 degree FOV). The little Nauticam housing is just slick, very small, the ergos are excellent. The R50 is responsive, shoots clean even at higher ISO, auto focus is super fast, optical strobes sync at up to 1/250 X-sync speed which is basically a full stop faster than the Sony A6XXX series. And it has fully manual strobe capability with no pre-flash. The camera just slides in, no tray or complications, easy to change battery when needed. Just fantastic little outfit for travel. Nauticam could use to add a quality air dome (the SeaFrog dome I have tried with my NA-6400 basically sucks) to their selection and a bayonet flip adapter.


(Photo by D. Haas)

Above my WWL mounted to the NA-R50 shooting with a single Inon D2000 (20 years old) and single handle tray for compactness. In Bonaire now and shooting with my Nauticam/Sony NA-6400 and FIX/Canon S90. Frankly, if the little S90 had less shutter lag and a one inch sensor I would never have bought either the Sony Nauticam or the Canon Nauticam. The S90 with it's fully manual capability, no preflash, controls for every function, superior ergos, and tiny size is just a fantastic camera and the ability to have X-sync at 1/2000 second, priceless. And the Inon UFL165AD, despite some operating requirments , is just fantastic for 165 degree FOV.

 

[keeperguy64]

My dislike of Sony cameras is increasing daily. The RX100 series has no manual strobe capability, it always fires a preflash which consumes battery. And slows the response down. The A6XXX series is crippled with a 1/160 flash X-sync shutter speed and also has no manual flash without pre-flash. And it is clunky.

My suggestion, and I just bought one, the Nauticam/Canon R50. The hybrid (compact camera virtues with APS-C mirrorless imaging power) mirrorless system without an interchangeable port intended to live in the Nauticam universe of water contact optics. It is meant to use the outstanding WWL-1 (130 degree FOV, full zoom through, focus at the dome), the WWL-C (120 degree FOV, full zoom through, focus to the dome) and the macro diopters CMC-1 and CMC-2 and the EMWL macro and wide angle (150 degree FOV). The little Nauticam housing is just slick, very small, the ergos are excellent. The R50 is responsive, shoots clean even at higher ISO, auto focus is super fast, optical strobes sync at up to 1/250 X-sync speed which is basically a full stop faster than the Sony A6XXX series. And it has fully manual strobe capability with no pre-flash. The camera just slides in, no tray or complications, easy to change battery when needed. Just fantastic little outfit for travel. Nauticam could use to add a quality air dome (the SeaFrog dome I have tried with my NA-6400 basically sucks) to their selection and a bayonet flip adapter.


(Photo by DHass)

Above my WWL mounted to the NA-R50 shooting with a single Inon D2000 (20 years old) and single handle tray for compactness. In Bonaire now and shooting with my Nauticam/Sony NA-6400 and FIX/Canon S90. Frankly, if the little S90 had less shutter lag and a one inch sensor I would never have bought either the Sony Nauticam or the Canon Nauticam. The S90 with it's fully manual capability, no preflash, controls for every function, superior ergos, and tiny size is just a fantastic camera and the ability to have X-sync at 1/2000 second, priceless. And the Inon UFL165AD, despite some operating requirments , is just fantastic for 165 degree FOV.

Thanks for the response. The R50 looks really compelling! A few questions for you about it:

* It looks like the R50 doesn't have dedicated shutter speed, aperture, and ISO dials. Do you miss them?
* Has the lack of in-body image stabilization annoyed you? It seems like virtually every camera has stabilization these days, but I guess if you're shooting at max flash sync SS (1/250) the stabilization doesn't make a huge difference?
* What's the in-air weight of the tray, housing, and camera (with battery)? Does it end up packing relatively small?

 

[Nemrod]

Thanks for the response. The R50 looks really compelling! A few questions for you about it:

* It looks like the R50 doesn't have dedicated shutter speed, aperture, and ISO dials. Do you miss them?
* Has the lack of in-body image stabilization annoyed you? It seems like virtually every camera has stabilization these days, but I guess if you're shooting at max flash sync SS (1/250) the stabilization doesn't make a huge difference?
* What's the in-air weight of the tray, housing, and camera (with battery)? Does it end up packing relatively small?

The shutter and apreture are on the +/- button. The ISO is on the top right beside the control dial. Toggling between functions is super easy, fast and intuitive. I had thought it would be kind of clunky but actually in fact, after using the NA-R50 before purchase, it is as fast and easy as the dedicated controls on my NA-6400. In Manual pressing the +/- toggles between aperture and f-stop and your fingers are already on the dial and button. The ISO when pressed give the master dial over to ISO until pressed once again. It sounds complicated, it is not in practice. I actually rather like having all the controls right there. I also have a programmed button for BBF and another for toggling between manual flash and auto (sTT)L flash.

The Nikon/Nauticam NA-Z50 is the same set up with a fixed port up but does have separate controls for f-stop and aperture but much worse battery life per my reading 9and possibly a lesser sensor and AF).

IMO, ILS and IBIS are not important to me underwater. The water dampens out shakes and the lens shifting or sensor shifting can cause vignetting or dark corners on the side away from the shifted direction. Besides, the only lens that can be used with either the Canon NA-R50 or the new Nikon NA-Z50 is the kit lens and they have ILS. I turn it off. I have it turned off on my S90 and my A6400. This is not an issue. The NA-R50 is meant to use the kit lens with the WWL-1/WWL-C/MWL/CMC-1 and CMC-2 water contact optics. If you want dedicated lenses and ports and domes and adapters and extensions and all of that then you will want something else. The idea here is to be compact and travel friendly and to emulate the compact cameras and use water contact optics. The WWL-1 takes second seat to nothing. It is an amazing optic. If you need a 180 degree fisheye then again, the 130 degrees of the WWL-1 and NA-R50 will not be what you want. You have to decide if you want to spend the money and carry all of the ports and lenses and adapters or go WWL-1 and CMC-1/-2.

The 1/250 flash sync speed is useful for CFWA and sun balls and WA shots. I find the 1/160 of the Sony Alpha 6XXX series camera limiting. I have to go to a high aperture and boost my strobe power to compensate. And even at 1/250 there will still be times when I will need to increase aperture and up strobe power. Today I was shooting my Canon S90 at 1/500 to control the sun ball from over exposure at f11 and using about half power on my strobes for the subject. With my A6400 I would need to go to f16 or f22 and full dump on the strobes. This is the kind of shot where fast X-sync speeds (and powerful strobes) are useful. I do not have powerful strobes .



Others may disagree, I understand and appreciate that, you will need to ferret out what is important to your needs, nobody can decide that for you. Also, let me add, I do not shoot any video though today I would have wished I had my GoPro I have not used in years atop my camera. Oh well.

 

[Nemrod]

Let me add something here for exposure understanding at which I claim no expertise as I basically sXXk at it. I am in some sort of flux or state of disrepair I fear where I get worse and worse .

It is often said that the shutter speed is used to control ambient and background light and the aperture along with strobe power the foreground/subject. Obviously when you have run out of shutter speed to increase to control a bright back ground (and reduce ISO possibly) then you have no choice but to use the aperture by closing it down which means you need to boost strobe power. That sounds simple, if it were we would all be great photogs of which as I said, I am not . TTL really is helpful to me for these situations sometimes of course at some point my little S220 strobes have their little tongues hanging out and they are crying, we ain't got no more power Captain (says Scotty to Kirk)!

 

[tursiops]

Let me add something here for exposure understanding at which I claim no expertise as I basically sXXk at it. I am in some sort of flux or state of disrepair I fear where I get worse and worse .

It is often said that the shutter speed is used to control ambient and background light and the aperture along with strobe power the foreground/subject. Obviously when you have run out of shutter speed to increase to control a bright back ground (and reduce ISO possibly) then you have no choice but to use the aperture by closing it down which means you need to boost strobe power. That sounds simple, if it were we would all be great photogs of which as I said, I am not . TTL really is helpful to me for these situations sometimes of course at some point my little S220 strobes have their little tongues hanging out and they are crying, we ain't got no more power Captain (says Scotty to Kirk)!

This is true, but I shoot at 1/250 (max sync speed) and ISO 100-200m and rarely find a problem with needing a smaller f-stop than 11 or 16, even when shooting a sun ball; f/8 or 11 are my go-to if possible to avoid diffraction-caused loss of sharpness. My YS-D1s are rarely set for more than half-power to get sufficient light on the foreground, and much less than that for macro.