Sometime – It’s Just One Things After Another

[Albion]

I do not yet have the experience to comment, as I am a new diver myself. I will tell you this, I know my limitations and comfort level, and I will not exceed them. I tend to err on the side of caution, and I am reading about everything I can get my hands on. Doing AOW and Nitrox classes in a few weeks. Have recently read (to Don's surprise) Shadow Divers and The Last Dive. Learning from many on here as well.

Your arrogance is appalling to me. I will not comment further, as I do not wish to be the next victim of your attacks. Though I probably will be.

some times the truth hurts and as a new diver you will eventually learn that today you dont know as much as you though you did.

Also as you have read the last dive you will note a similarity here to Bernie's accident, he lost the line and atmepted to find it exagerating his deco obliagtion which he then moslty blew off.

Was it panic here, no , but it certainly wasnt clear thinking either. thats why everyone 9with the right heads on) i saying get deco trianign befor eanyone plans (duh) dives this way, so you have the PROPER equipment and contingency plans to get you out of it. a hang tnak is one plan, but should not be your only plan.

 

[StSomewhere]

For what it's worth, a lot of people respond to old threads and I don't see why people get so bent over it.

Not in and of itself. Probably half the people in the thread have moved on, probably the other half would look at things a lot differently now than they might have a year ago.

To dredge up something almost a year old with what I would consider a one line personal attack, yeah, that's a little over the top.

 

[FreeFloat]

I just read over this whole thread, linked from elsewhere, and I don't see limeyx's comment as a "personal attack". Saying DandyDon you have no clue about (whatever) would be a personal attack. Limeyx was stating a fact: Rock Bottom is not turn pressure. Rock Bottom is the absolute minimum gas required to get you and an OOA buddy back to the surface, completing all stops (required and safety), from the deepest/furthest point of your dive. Thus if you "turned" at Rock Bottom, you've already gone way past the gas you were going to need for the return trip, and you are now on contincency (emergency) gas!

Although not nearly as in depth as I had in my DIR-F class (no I didn't get a full pass, and no I'm not preaching here) my Basic OW instructor summed it up nicely when he said: "So you want to get back on the boat with 500 psi. That's nice. You're planning to dive to 80' in a current - when do you start heading back? What if the current shifts or something happens? Do you now have enough gas?"

DandyDon mentioned using "thirds" as a gas management technique. Thirds, as explained in the Cavern course book, was long considered to be "adequate" as far as providing enough of a safety in case things awry in calm (non-current) conditions, in Open Water. However there are cases, diving in current or being cold/narced/task-loaded being some of them, where your "return third" is now not enough for you to return to your start point without dipping into your "emergency third". Then if you have a true emergency, the "emergency third" is not adequate.... you can see the snowball forming.

I realize this thread is over a year old and I hope that Dandy has had a chance to speak/dive with/learn from other divers - not just get pounded for his planning skills or perceived lack thereof, or choice of gear - but truly shown alternatives and given an opportunity to decide whether or not they might be prefereable to his previous methods. (I won't even put in the requisite plug for sitting in on a DIR-F class although any DIR instructor would be happy to give out some pointers that would go a looooooong way toward nipping in the bud some of the cascading events seen in this thread.)

The only criticism I have for Dandy was that if you dive as a Solo diver, you need to be completely able to rescue yourself from the worst possible situation happening at the worst possible time. Running to the nearest team should never be acceptable. And planning on hitting the surface and hoping, should not be either.

Solo diving is a tremendous responsibility in that you are relying utterly on yourself (and your equipment) to solve your problems on the bottom.

Sorry this got so long. I couldn't help but comment.

Dandy, let us know how you're doing on these points lately - what have you changed in this intervening year?

 

[diverbrian]

I (not Don) was the one that referred to what is being called Rock Bottom as turn pressure. I do not feel attacked as a fact was pointed out. Keep in mind, I turn at turn pressure and not absolute minimum, thus Rock Bottom is not heavily in my concerns. As you pointed out, if I am worried about it then I have already been down too long. To me that part hasn't changed. Also, typically I dive dive double 130's and a stage. I tend to have to turn (if I am not solo diving) well before I hit third's. We actually have IANTD tables to cover gas matching for many of the instances I find myself in.

As far as what has happened with Don in the meantime, I don't know except to know that he is alive and kicking .

I forget everything that was mentioned (as far as analysis) in the first of the thread, but I remember the issues well as it really was a simple case and I have read enough similar incident reports elsewhere with more tragic endings.

I just read over this whole thread, linked from elsewhere, and I don't see limeyx's comment as a "personal attack". Saying DandyDon you have no clue about (whatever) would be a personal attack. Limeyx was stating a fact: Rock Bottom is not turn pressure. Rock Bottom is the absolute minimum gas required to get you and an OOA buddy back to the surface, completing all stops (required and safety), from the deepest/furthest point of your dive. Thus if you "turned" at Rock Bottom, you've already gone way past the gas you were going to need for the return trip, and you are now on contincency (emergency) gas!

Although not nearly as in depth as I had in my DIR-F class (no I didn't get a full pass, and no I'm not preaching here) my Basic OW instructor summed it up nicely when he said: "So you want to get back on the boat with 500 psi. That's nice. You're planning to dive to 80' in a current - when do you start heading back? What if the current shifts or something happens? Do you now have enough gas?"

DandyDon mentioned using "thirds" as a gas management technique. Thirds, as explained in the Cavern course book, was long considered to be "adequate" as far as providing enough of a safety in case things awry in calm (non-current) conditions, in Open Water. However there are cases, diving in current or being cold/narced/task-loaded being some of them, where your "return third" is now not enough for you to return to your start point without dipping into your "emergency third". Then if you have a true emergency, the "emergency third" is not adequate.... you can see the snowball forming.

I realize this thread is over a year old and I hope that Dandy has had a chance to speak/dive with/learn from other divers - not just get pounded for his planning skills or perceived lack thereof, or choice of gear - but truly shown alternatives and given an opportunity to decide whether or not they might be prefereable to his previous methods. (I won't even put in the requisite plug for sitting in on a DIR-F class although any DIR instructor would be happy to give out some pointers that would go a looooooong way toward nipping in the bud some of the cascading events seen in this thread.)

The only criticism I have for Dandy was that if you dive as a Solo diver, you need to be completely able to rescue yourself from the worst possible situation happening at the worst possible time. Running to the nearest team should never be acceptable. And planning on hitting the surface and hoping, should not be either.

Solo diving is a tremendous responsibility in that you are relying utterly on yourself (and your equipment) to solve your problems on the bottom.

Sorry this got so long. I couldn't help but comment.

Dandy, let us know how you're doing on these points lately - what have you changed in this intervening year?

 

[limeyx]

I just read over this whole thread, linked from elsewhere, and I don't see limeyx's comment as a "personal attack".

Sorry this got so long. I couldn't help but comment.

Dandy, let us know how you're doing on these points lately - what have you changed in this intervening year?

It's not that comment that they are complaining about, more the deleted one

My comment (IMO) was spot on and needed to be said, but obviously could have been phrased differently

Generally I am not one to criticize what happens when things go tits up in the water because until an emergency happens to you, it's impossible to know how *you* will react, and so it's unfair to criticize others.

HOWEVER, what happens *before* you go in the water -- there really isn't an excuse for not even doing the basic stuff. I don't see (in this case) the above-water issues as being a "learning exercise" but just plain disregard for safety of *other people who were not even diving with the original diver*

As another poster said -- what if the guy doing deco had been injured either because his gas got sucked down, *or* he had followed this guy up -- that could be a lawsuit.

I'm not going to rehash the discussion because most things have been said, but I think this response "I am, btw, continuing to try to be a better diver - in part from comments made on this thread as well as be a better buddy.

I carry my pony forward slug so I can see the guage, valve and reg now - as I did today - as a result of this incident and thread. Still trust it better than most of the buddies I get."

Indicates the original poster has not learned from their mistakes and will continue to endanger *other* divers from *other* teams -- and that is unacceptable In my opinion.

what i would consider a "learning experience" is -- why did the diver not start to surface when they got low on gas, but continued to look for the line. This is something that might seem obvious from our armchairs but once you get in the water, I guess could be forgotten (I have seen it myself -- 10 or so divers frantically holding onto kelp for dear life at 200 psi because they couldn't find the anchor line rather than surfacing)

but when on the surface, failing to do basic stuff to ensure your and other divers safety is just unacceptable (yet all too common).

to me, if a diver says something like this "I’ll join a buddy team as a self-invited new-bud if it looks like the prudent action available" is part of their plan then they should *not* be in the water, period. They are endangering someone else (possibly multiple people) and that's just reckless.

I think this is distinct from "I did some basic planning, considered my safety and safety of others on the boat, but I messed up under water and now I need to share air with someone not on my team."

The difference in the two cases being that in the second, the diver did their best to be safe but screwed up in a situation that can be difficult to handle (and is too rarely practiced).

 

[limeyx]

Glad you made it out ok, sounds like you handled everything very well.

I just wanted to comment on buddy breathing and share one of my own experiences. Our club was diving a wreck in the St. Lawrence river called the Eastcliffe Hall (not far from Brockville where you recently dove, maybe you visited it?). This is a sizable wreck at 343' in length in 65' of water with 3 to 6 kt current. We did an air check at the end of our dive before starting our ascent up the mooring line, I was at 700psi and my buddy at 400 (we both had 80AL, there is another story here why our air got so low that probably should be told but I'll save that for another day). So by the time we got to our safety he was breathing off my octo. This wasn't the issue. The problem was the way we were orientated on the line. He was on my left which meant the octo, on my right, put us in close proximity. My console had come off the clip so it was dragging behind me in the current and I wasn't able to retrieve it (without risking falling off the line and/or ripping the octo out of my buddies mouth).

...and some people say there's no room for a long hose in recreational diving

 

[StSomewhere]

I just read over this whole thread, linked from elsewhere, and I don't see limeyx's comment as a "personal attack". Saying DandyDon you have no clue about (whatever) would be a personal attack. Limeyx was stating a fact: Rock Bottom ...

That's because the offensive post was deleted by a mod.

 

[limeyx]

I (not Don) was the one that referred to what is being called Rock Bottom as turn pressure. I do not feel attacked as a fact was pointed out. Keep in mind, I turn at turn pressure and not absolute minimum, thus Rock Bottom is not heavily in my concerns. As you pointed out, if I am worried about it then I have already been down too long. To me that part hasn't changed. Also, typically I dive dive double 130's and a stage. I tend to have to turn (if I am not solo diving) well before I hit third's. We actually have IANTD tables to cover gas matching for many of the instances I find myself in.

You still need to plan on having enough gas to get you (and an OOA buddy -- assuming you have one) to the surface. Doesn't matter if you call it rock bottom or whatever, as long as it is

1) based in reality
2) something you *and* your buddy/team is comfortable with
3) gas that is *not* used for the dive, but only to get safely back to the surface.

Just saying "well, I have big tanks & a stage" doesn't really cut it.

 

[limeyx]

That's because the offensive post was deleted by a mod.

call if offensive if you like, but SCUBA already has enough risks involved without someone just making it worse through lack of thinking on the surface.

Could I have expressed it more "gently" ? possibly. Should I have? Maybe not.
I still dont see any evidence that the original poster is doing any more planning or has changed his habits. scary.

 

[diverbrian]

You still need to plan on having enough gas to get you (and an OOA buddy -- assuming you have one) to the surface. Doesn't matter if you call it rock bottom or whatever, as long as it is

1) based in reality
2) something you *and* your buddy/team is comfortable with
3) gas that is *not* used for the dive, but only to get safely back to the surface.

Just saying "well, I have big tanks & a stage" doesn't really cut it.

You miss the point. I am saying that it is calculated out ahead of time and the big tanks and stage are a factor. I AM NOT saying or advising that someone go out and get huge tanks and a stage and think that they can forget out gas management. I AM saying that they add cushion and better redundancy. As well, with the stage bottle being a deco gas, it gets used. I do make plans that one bottle could be gone and I make it back to the surface. This could mean having enough backgas left to do my deco completely on backgas or having using two stages and writing up a dive plan to switch to with only one stage available if need be.

My stage bottle doesn't sit around waiting to fail for a year until something happens and I need it. That is a recipe for problems in and of itself.