UnderSeaBumbleBee
Contributor
So what is the difference between a Hog diver and DIR diver or is there one?
So what is the difference?
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Hogarthian, named for William Hogarth Main, is just a gear configuration developed by the early cave diving community. Naui has NTEC, same thing.
DIR is almost exactly the same configuration + a team + training + experience
DIR is almost exactly the same configuration + a team + training + experience
Falco
Contributor
A hog diver is a diver who uses gear that is compatible with the hogarthian philosophy. A DIR diver is a diver who suscribes to the DIR philosophy that encompasses, not only gear configuration, but all the different aspects of diving such the team diving mindset, standard procedures, etc. A DIR diver can be regarded as a Hog diver, but the reverse might not be true.
H2Andy
Contributor
yeah... basically
think of Hogarthian as Protestans branching off Catholicism and their eeky diving ways with so much clutter (<----- joke)
and think of DIR divers as Fundamentalist Protestans, further refining and streamlining the process
what a great metaphor, eh?
think of Hogarthian as Protestans branching off Catholicism and their eeky diving ways with so much clutter (<----- joke)
and think of DIR divers as Fundamentalist Protestans, further refining and streamlining the process
what a great metaphor, eh?
mikerault
Contributor
Well one is DIR and the other is DUH...(Diving Using Hogarthian)
OP
UnderSeaBumbleBee
Contributor
mikerault:
Thank you for your detailed and informative response to my question of HOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT Your explaination is full of wisdom and information that clears up HOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT and what sets one apart form the other.
I think I am going to start a movement to have you named the wisest man on the board. And would everyone vote for you? Well to quote you, "DUH"
Leah: Did you search at all? This discussion has come up a number of times from what I recall.
The hogarthian system (by JJ) http://homepage.mac.com/ljjames/scuba/tech/hogarthian.html
Now may folks (and you see it above) indicate that Hogarthian is all about the gear while DIR embraces additional aspects beyond (as rjack stated above). If you have a careful read through the link above, you'll note that it already has a section on fitness. Given that things don't happen in nice distinct 'chunks' in history, having some blurred lines based on when a statment was made in the development only makes sense IMO, but makes it harder to distinguish one from the other.
Though GI3 has some choice words about todays 'hogarthians' I believe it might be best to not quote him here
The hogarthian system (by JJ) http://homepage.mac.com/ljjames/scuba/tech/hogarthian.html
Now may folks (and you see it above) indicate that Hogarthian is all about the gear while DIR embraces additional aspects beyond (as rjack stated above). If you have a careful read through the link above, you'll note that it already has a section on fitness. Given that things don't happen in nice distinct 'chunks' in history, having some blurred lines based on when a statment was made in the development only makes sense IMO, but makes it harder to distinguish one from the other.
Though GI3 has some choice words about todays 'hogarthians' I believe it might be best to not quote him here
Hey Leah,leah:
The broadest answer would be, as was set out earlier, "all DIR divers are also using a "Hogarthian" configuration; but not all "Hogarthian" divers are using a DIR configuration".
Essentially, looking only at equipment for a moment - although the other aspects of DIR are probably far more significant in terms of describing the differences between the two, (while both terms are illusory and change over time) "what was/is and was not/is not DIR" used to be rather strictly prescribed by the WKPP. I believe that more recently "changes to what is considered DIR" have begun appearing on GUE's Quest website, but I could be mistaken and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am. DIR sought a nearly identical configuration for all WKPP divers, down to what was carried in the diver's pockets, and deviations from the prescribed equipment list were frowned on. (Historically it is my understanding that Bill Main (and others) played a significant role in the development of a configuration that was eventually considered optimal by the WKPP, first under Parker Turner and later under George Irvine in the early to mid 1990s.)
In contrast, what was/is "Hogarthian" (I'm not sure that word actually has any true meaning anymore) has generally been far more broadly interpreted, so that a much wider degree of variation between divers falls within its ambiguous boundaries.
Essentially, "Hogarthian" currently means so many different things, to so many different divers, that it basically doesn't mean anything specifically any longer, with the possible exception of the long hose and bungeed back-up. And god only knows what configuration, precisely, William Hogarth Main is actually diving these days, if Bill Main is even still diving. In lieu of any more substantive standards and criteria, "Hogarthian" basically means "near-DIR" or some DIR-like configuration that nevertheless does not meet the strict standards of the WKPP.
I hope this helps, and also hope that if there is any more recent and specific description of either configuration that may assist you to understand the differences, that someone will post a link.
Doc
Doc: That brings up the interesting point on who today decides what is DIR and what is not.
Is it GUE's domain and if so, what does that mean for others (5thd-x for instance) who teach DIR (type) courses? I think it will be interesting to see how this develops more over time as more divers adopt DIR or something resembling it which they are calling DIR.
Is it GUE's domain and if so, what does that mean for others (5thd-x for instance) who teach DIR (type) courses? I think it will be interesting to see how this develops more over time as more divers adopt DIR or something resembling it which they are calling DIR.
Jeckyll,
AFAIK it's still Casey and the WKPP, but I'll try to find a link.
One of the better sources would be Anthony at GUE, who is (or used to be) a member of this board, and Chick Diver would also know.
Here is the most recent link:
http://www.gue.com/Projects/WKPP/index.html
After the fiasco of 2004/2005, Jarrod and GUE moved to consolidate gains and perform damage control, moving away from the "DIR" disadvantages and seeking to incorporate various other efforts into a more cohesive whole. AFAIK, while the term has obviously taken on a life of its own, and is now far more broadly discussed on scuba boards everywhere than it ever was a decade ago, it is still the WKPP that determines what they will use in their efforts, and their standard remains the standard of choice for those who follow such things.
Andrew Georgitus was formerly the global training director of GUE. During 2004/2005 there was a falling out, for a number of different reasons. Andrew left GUE and took a number of instructors with him. Andrew was partners in a dive shop in Seattle called 5th-D. Our own Grateful Diver worked there, and AFAIK still does. Andrew relocated to California, where he and his partners continue to manufacture the X-scooter and offer training that is, in fact, nearly identical with the courses that GUE offers - as obviously Andrew had a rather substantial amount of influence in designing and developing the courses for GUE. Here is his curriculum vitae:
http://www.5thd-x.com/classes/staff/andrew.html
You are correct, there continues to be a broader interest in this sort of training and diving, and I expect that the market will remain large enough to support both GUE and Andrew's X-efforts...
If I'm mistaken, I will be corrected directly I'm sure, so take this as MHO AFAIK.
Regards,
Doc
AFAIK it's still Casey and the WKPP, but I'll try to find a link.
One of the better sources would be Anthony at GUE, who is (or used to be) a member of this board, and Chick Diver would also know.
Here is the most recent link:
http://www.gue.com/Projects/WKPP/index.html
After the fiasco of 2004/2005, Jarrod and GUE moved to consolidate gains and perform damage control, moving away from the "DIR" disadvantages and seeking to incorporate various other efforts into a more cohesive whole. AFAIK, while the term has obviously taken on a life of its own, and is now far more broadly discussed on scuba boards everywhere than it ever was a decade ago, it is still the WKPP that determines what they will use in their efforts, and their standard remains the standard of choice for those who follow such things.
Andrew Georgitus was formerly the global training director of GUE. During 2004/2005 there was a falling out, for a number of different reasons. Andrew left GUE and took a number of instructors with him. Andrew was partners in a dive shop in Seattle called 5th-D. Our own Grateful Diver worked there, and AFAIK still does. Andrew relocated to California, where he and his partners continue to manufacture the X-scooter and offer training that is, in fact, nearly identical with the courses that GUE offers - as obviously Andrew had a rather substantial amount of influence in designing and developing the courses for GUE. Here is his curriculum vitae:
http://www.5thd-x.com/classes/staff/andrew.html
You are correct, there continues to be a broader interest in this sort of training and diving, and I expect that the market will remain large enough to support both GUE and Andrew's X-efforts...
If I'm mistaken, I will be corrected directly I'm sure, so take this as MHO AFAIK.
Regards,
Doc
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