So what is a basic certification today?

[cerich]

No it's was the 17min thing.

In between our posts I noticed Mike stated what I was thinking.

Chris, Walter and Mike, I must say good show!

I used your OW tour/dive and do skills to complete the OW course this past weekend myself, and I must say it was far better than how I originally used to do it. Of course we weren't taught to do it this way, but I just figured it would make a better course, not knowing you gents would be talking about this very topic today.

I almost have to make a public apology for those unfortunate few that I now feel I didn't give my best in this regard.

It worked so well this is how I am going to do it from this point onwards. Of the 6 OOA I gave to the one student, the last 4 were totally impromptu and whilst swimming around looking at the scenery. This person, save once, did not touch a platform for her 6 dives. She was hovering like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. Damn sweet.

EDIT: hehehe, yep Walter you're right.

OK did my PADI crossover in 1997, haven't given what a dive by standards is for PADI a seconds thought since.

What is the standard as of now?

 

[neil]

OK did my PADI crossover in 1997, haven't given what a dive by standards is for PADI a seconds thought since.
What is the standard as of now?

I copied this directly from the CD.

Open water is any body of water considerably larger than a swimming pool
that exposes student divers to an environment similar to that experienced by
recreational divers.
1. U se discretion to choose an open water site that represents an appropriate
diving environment while offering conditions conducive to completing
required training. Consider the following:
a. water conditions – including movement, temperature, visibility, depth
and aquatic life
b. course level
c. course requirements
d. number of certified assistants, if any
e. type of equipment
f. weather conditions
g. personal familiarity with the site
2. The minimum depth for open water skill evaluations is 5 metres/15 feet.
3. The maximum depth for open water training dives must not exceed the
depth specified in individual Instructor Guides. Additionally:
a. Do not plan or conduct any training dives in excess of 40 metres/130
feet.
b. Do not plan dives or conduct dives that exceed the Recreational Dive
Planner limits or the no decompression limits of the student’s dive
computer (as outlined by the manufacturer’s instructions.)
c. Do not plan or conduct any training dives for 12-14 year old Junior
Divers in excess of 21 metres/70 feet, nor any dives for 10-11 year old
divers deeper than 12 metres/40 feet.
4. For training purposes, an open water dive is a dive during which a student
diver spends the majority of time at a depth of at least 5 metres/15 feet
and:
a. breathes at least 1400 litres or 50 cubic feet of compressed gas.
OR
b. remains submerged for at least 20 minutes.
5. Training dives must include all activities outlined in the particular course
Instructor Guide and must also include:
a. a briefing
b. preparation to dive (equipment assembly)
c. an entry
d. an exit
e. a debriefing and equipment disassembly
f. logging the dive (See Administrative Procedures)
6. Conduct open water training dives only during daylight hours unless
otherwise specified in the individual Instructor Guide. Daylight is defined
as the time from one hour after sunrise to one hour before sunset.
7. Conduct no more than three open water scuba training dives in a single
day, night or combination thereof. When conducting a third dive for Open
Water Diver course students, the maximum depth of the third dive must
not exceed 12 metres/40 feet. This applies to an Adventure Dive conducted
as a third dive after completion of the Open Water Diver course dives.
8. Do not conduct open water training dives or Discover Scuba Diving
experience dives in caves, caverns, under ice or in any situation where
direct vertical access to the surface is not possible. Exceptions include Ice,
Cavern or Wreck Diver Specialty courses, and special orientation dives for
certified divers.

 

[kent_1848]

Yea, but none of those examples will kill you.

I'm willing to bet that more people have died as a result of their car breaking down, than people who's watches have quit working, or even those people without watches.

 

[kent_1848]

I copied this directly from the CD.
...
4. For training purposes, an open water dive is a dive during which a student
diver spends the majority of time at a depth of at least 5 metres/15 feet
and:
a. breathes at least 1400 litres or 50 cubic feet of compressed gas.
OR
b. remains submerged for at least 20 minutes...

16. Open water training dives that are made to meet the
minimum number of dives for certification are to be:
a minimum of 15 minutes,...

Directly from SSI standards. Not saying the instructor wasn't PADI, but it is possible.

 

[Dragon2115]

Ana,

It had been a while since we were in the boat, at the end of our first dive I was told that now they have to hold my tank-valve while I go from the platform to my spot. The path is no more than a 4 or 5 steps and amusingly enough, they don't have to hold me or my tank while I go from the spot to the platform only for the return trip. I didn't like to be informed of new things while I'm going up the ladder, but since there aren't that many available boats in this backwards town, I figured it was better to kept my opinions to myself.

Are you serious? They held your tank valve while you were walking on deck and you feel that you were being treated like you were retarded? That seems a bit extreme to me. It also seems like a pretty trivial thing to me in light of other things that could happen, like making you stay with the DM and surfacing when the first hoover sucks through their tank while you still have 1500 psi. That would make me feel like I was being treated like I didn't know what I was doing more than having someone hold my tank while I walk on deck. I think what you ran into was something the insurance company has forced on the boat operator. But when you think about it, so what if they hold your tank valve while you walk on deck with your gear? Would you prefer that or saying your sorry after an unexpected wave hit the boat and you fall on someone by accident from losing your balance? I've been on boats where they steady a walking diver just as a convenience to make life easier for them.



To the instructors:

Question, aside from griping here about other instructors lackings and that of their (and your own) agencies, have any of you instructors petitioned the agencies you work for to tighten up the instructor or course requirements? Have you put together a detailed course outline, or at least suggestions as to how, where, and why the course should be improved, and submitted it to them for review? Do you report instructors that appear to be violating the standards to the agencies for investigation? Short of actions like that I don't see the value in this.

 

[Walter]

Ana,

Are you serious? They held your tank valve while you were walking on deck and you feel that you were being treated like you were retarded? That seems a bit extreme to me.

You obviously don't know Ana. She's serious. I tend to agree with her, I want a boat ride to the site, a site briefing and a boat ride back to the dock. I don't need anything else.

To the instructors:

have any of you instructors petitioned the agencies you work for to tighten up the instructor or course requirements?

I have and I've gotten changes made to the YMCA standards. I know Mike Ferrera has complained of trying unsuccessfully to get changes made to PADI standards.

 

[Nemrod]

Ana, I have been diving in the panahndle for several decades, actually since the late 60s. About ten years ago is when all this really started down there. The only other place I have been that is often as bad in some places down in the keys.
The dive boats in the panahandle from Panama City, Destin, Pensecola just will not go offshore anymore. They treat you like your retarded and if you ask about offshore rocks or other locations they wave their hands around and get angry and red faced.
I have no answer for you. Part of it is that they are lazy, part of it is that they make more money on short hauls with newbie divers than going offshore. part of it is the very sad state of diving instruction. Most of the offshore diving in the area is in 70 to 120 feet of water. Since Padi certifies divers only to 60 feet it makes it really diffucult to get a dive boat to go out to deeper locations.
I have several locations that are fairly far offshore, sinkholes, deep ledges and there is absolutely no way I can get back to them--charters will not go. So, I bought my own boat. Next summer I plan an extended trip through Florida and I am going to dive my favorite places. If the charters will not cooperate I am going on my own.
Frankly, I think they have become spoiled and lazy, I have no other explanation for boats that will not leave sight of the inlets. N

 

[Dragon2115]

Hi Walter,

We'll just have to disagree on that one I guess. I just don't see the reason to get so upset over someone holding your tank valve to avoid a potential accident and injury given all the other things that go on that are so much more in line with Ana's basic premise, being treated like a retard. I can think of lots of other things that are a lot worse in that regard is all I'm saying. I mean come on folks, if this is how you get over something as trivial as this you must go absolutely insane when it comes to where it really counts, like not being allowed to dive your own profile.

As for effecting change at the YMCA, that's excellent Walter. I compliment you for accomplishing that on your own. Although I am a little surprised where the Y typically (in my area anyway) had the reputation as being the toughest most stringent of the certifying agencies.

However, for these agencies this is business and right now the statistics say their teaching methods are doing ok. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the lay of the land at the moment. So short of a huge spike in accidental diving deaths that can be directly tied to lax training techniques the only way you're going to get anywhere is for the instructors of a particular agency to band together and petition the agency as a group, not individuals.

The question also remains about what effect would be had if people like Ana called whatever agency this particular instructor was from and reported what she observed? Where appearance is important for these agencies I'm sure they'd do something if more people called in and reported problems when they saw them.