So what is a basic certification today?

[kent_1848]

(Reminds me of when I was a kid, and my dad kept insisting that I learn to solve math problems without a calculator, because "someday" I might not have access to one....a legitimate issue, but a low-percentage chance issue.)

Yeah, it is a legitimate issue, but I don't have a horse (even though I know how to ride one) just in case my truck breaks down, or a manual typewriter (even though I know how to use one) just in case my computer kicks the bucket. My dad walked up hill both ways in snow to school, but now we have busses. Doesn't mean my kid doesn't know how to walk, just means that times are changing.

 

[Sharkbaithawaii]

From the view down here not on a horse. We did are dives with watches, 6 went down, 6 came up, six had different times. You know i honestly, keeping track of a stop watch was the last thing on my mind. Air emblism, dcs, trying to get back on the boat with out doing something stupid, during the dive was the top. Our instructor gave us the times then we has to calculate tables.
After that it became easy to realize that if there was an easier way to do things (thank you dive watch) it was something i needed. So now its puter primary, dive watch secondary, no watch, no timers, no getiing through a dive realizing I forgot to hit start (done several times).

 

[MikeFerrara]

Last comment:

While I thought the procedure was lax and I endorse heartily the idea that people need to be trained on procedures, not just expected to take control of their own diving on the very first day spontaneously, I will readily admit that at no time did I feel the diving was "unsafe". The instructors teach many classes at this location, the dives were task-scheduled, not time-scheduled (in other words, we did our drills and then exited, and the total time of the drills was almost always less than 20 minutes) and we had a surface intervals of more than an hour between dives. At no time did we come anywhere close to a NDL; nor would we have been able to given the depth we were at and the consumption rates of the students. Underwater, PSI was checked frequently, and I know the DMs and instructors had a rough (but good) estimate of all our gas supplies during the checkout dives - I think everyone in the class was gas limited, not ND limited anyway.

This brings up a good point. You did your drills and exited? Almost always less than 20 minutes?

Most agencies require a 20 minute dive (or a certain amount of air to be consumed). Now, that minimum time or gas requirement is so that when students get cold or run low on gas or have to cut the dive short for some other reason, they can still count the dive and move on to the skills required on the next dive. However, it's intended that those be minimums and that dives last longer. Most agencies statandards also require a "tour"...a portion of the dive that's just diving to gain experience actually applying skills to a real diving environment. You learn by doing and kneeling in the sand or on a platform while clearing a mask doesn't teach you how to function on a dive with a buddy.

I used to take students out for OW dives and most other shops were leaving with their students before we got in for our second dive. By then we would have the site to ourselves. As shallow as most of the sites were, many of our training dives were well in excess of an hour. Aside from having students demonstrate skills, we went diving. It's during the diving portion that I observed how students functioned with a buddy, followed a dive plan, treated the environment and let them gain some experience while having fun and seeing all the neatest things at the dive site. This is also when the instructor can spot and address weaknesses.

There's no way I can understate the value of the tour portion of the training dives. Students get to see first hand the importance of the trim, buoyancy control skills and finning techniques that we spent a little extra time learning in class and the pool when we stop to watch a catfish sneaking up on a bluegill nest or when I give them a surprise request to share air over a silty bottom. they'll either see how much easier everything is when done clean or they'll see first hand how messed up it can get when it isn't.

The students who are in and out of the water after skill demonstrations aren't doing any of this and they're handed a certification that says they can dive without ever actually demonstrating that they can dive. The OW dives aren't just so students can demonstrate skills in the OW environment (not too much different from what they did in the pool) but so they can actually gain experience applying those skills in a real diving environment.

This is just another example of how instructors use the minimums outlined in the standards in order to pump students through faster.

 

[smartecosse]

2. If, as an instructor, you don't require your students to have a means to time their dives and work the tables BY HAND, you should have your instructor card removed on the spot. Period. I don't give a rats ***** what agency you instruct for.

:huh:

i think quite a few inst cards will be in the post to you then. i expect my students to be able to plan their dives and then work out their pg's but they dont all have watches that are waterproof and quite a few dont even have watches these days.

there is a lot more than making someone wear a watch to teaching a course.

 

[victor]

I must agree with Perrone here.
I have watched newbee qualified divers, well at least I assumed they were new, go off the back of the boat with only a preasure guage. No depth guage, no watch.
I assume that on their return they asked the DM how deap and how long so they could fill out their logs. They seem to rely on the staff to control surface interval.

My instructor did not insist that we had a depth and timer as part of our course, however it was made clear to us that if we wanted to continue diving outside a course then we would need to have them. All the equipment we hired in Germany had a depth guage but the timer was our problem. Until I bought my own I used to borrow the backup from my instructor.

Yes I rely on electronics, I have a backup, for max depth and time.

 

[PerroneFord]

:huh:

i think quite a few inst cards will be in the post to you then. i expect my students to be able to plan their dives and then work out their pg's but they dont all have watches that are waterproof and quite a few dont even have watches these days.

there is a lot more than making someone wear a watch to teaching a course.

Fine, then I'll take those cards. Why on EARTH can you not mandate they have a timing device? You mandate a set of fins, snorkel, mask. I see a timing device as no less important, in fact MORE important than at least one of those items. I can dive without a mask (you still teach that skill right?), and I don't wear a snorkel.

People wonder why instructors get slammed and why agencies get slammed. Quite frankly THIS is why. People come and pay their hundreds of dollars to learn to DIVE. Not to come and be subjected to minimum standards. Not to be handed some watered down "it ok if you can't afford a $10 watch" we'll let you dive anyway. I'm sorry, that's not diving.

How the heck do you demand they plan a dive and work pressure groups if they have no means to time the dive or the surface interval?

You quote there is a lot more to teaching a course than making them wear a watch. You are so right. But apparently a lot of these new divers aren't getting that either from these piss poor instructors. It's a sham. And the agencies bear some of the responsibility too for allowing instructors to teach these pitiful course in their name.

 

[PerroneFord]

This is just another example of how instructors use the minimums outlined in the standards in order to pump students through faster.

Mike, it's clear these people have no intention of creating decent divers. They just want the money. There seem to be so few out there who actually care what they are doing, and they get to hide behind minimum standards.

I'd say some of these poorly trained divers are due at least partial refunds. But when you reduce the course to a "study at home" program, what do you expect I guess.

 

[Wayward Son]

Ana, try going out on sea Diver. The mostly book through Panama City Dive Center, or you can call Mary at 334-774-3483.

You won't see that happen on Sea Diver.

 

[cerich]

Mike, it's clear these people have no intention of creating decent divers. They just want the money. There seem to be so few out there who actually care what they are doing, and they get to hide behind minimum standards.

I'd say some of these poorly trained divers are due at least partial refunds. But when you reduce the course to a "study at home" program, what do you expect I guess.

Morning!

You know, you may have guessed that I often feel your postings are GUE Boilerplate.

Well, This time you are so correct that it's truly scary.

Well said and good post.

Best,

Chris

 

[Walter]

It's during the diving portion that I observed how students functioned with a buddy, followed a dive plan, treated the environment and let them gain some experience while having fun and seeing all the neatest things at the dive site. This is also when the instructor can spot and address weaknesses.

There's no way I can understate the value of the tour portion of the training dives.

As usual, excellent points. A few years ago, I stopped doing the "skills portion" of dives entirely. Now, all my check out dives are tours with skills tossed in as we swim around the reef. We still do all the skills, but there's no one time set aside for them. Students know what skills we'll be working on during the dive, but they don't know when they will come. They do know they won't be on their knees when it's time to recover a regulator or remove a mask.

it's clear these people have no intention of creating decent divers. They just want the money.

Careful, you're starting to sound like me.