Skipping open circuit and going straight to CCR

[takez0]

This is my first post here. I've learned a ton on this board and I'm grateful for the insights you all provide.

I'm getting into technical diving and I'd like to jump straight into a CCR. Does the group see any benefit or hindrance in skipping open circuit tech training costs and equipment costs and going straight into a CCR? CCR's are obviously an investment. I'd rather not spend money on a new BCD, manifold, tanks, etc., that would only be used specifically for dual-tank open circuit, considering I know where I want to end up already. Let me know your thoughts or if you think this is missed training opportunity.

 

[kensuf]

I'm not arguing for early CCR. I think, for example, there are a lot of excellent points about OC tech being simpler and allowing people to learn the fundamentals of tech diving in a bit more forgiving setup. I think there is also a lot of "human factors" value to a team really deeply understanding how fast gas goes at depth when they do their bailout planning.

I'm just looking for a little nuance to be added, here, and some acknowledgement that there are tradeoffs involved and not just a cut and dry "x is obviously better and y has no benefits".


I'm still wondering what strong "wait before CCR" proponents think about our two hypothetical comparison divers.

Diver A: 20 years CCR experience (starting with air dil no deco, ending with mod3)
Diver B: 12 years OC tech experience (AN/DP->adv mix), 8 years CCR experience (mod1->mod3).

I think ignoring this comparison does a disservice to the conversation. Are people really arguing that Diver A isn't going to be extremely competent? Possibly even more competent than Diver B for the vast majority of situations and problems? Can we agree that both divers will need to practice bailout regularly to ensure they are capable and ready to do so in an emergency? Are people really going to think that diver A never dives open circuit or fine tunes OC buoyancy sufficient to be competent during a bailout?

What's the frequency Kenneth? How much diving are divers A and B doing each year? How recently have they been diving? I'm friends with a guy that sounds a lot like your "Diver A" that only dives for one week a year and no, he doesn't dive open circuit.

 

[Celt]

Again, who cares? An agency doing something does not make it the right thing to do.

So where does someone wishing to start on CCR go,

 

[Germie]

Who decides what is right or wrong? Can we do that? I don't think so.
It is offered. There is an ask for it. Who decides then that a way is right or wrong? Not we as internet users. We only can advice, but we cannot say you do it wrong. There is no law for diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

Who decides what is right or wrong? Can we do that? I don't think so.
It is offered. There is an ask for it. Who decides then that a way is right or wrong? Not we as internet users. We only can advice, but we cannot say you do it wrong. There is no law for diving.

I can absolutely say something is a bad idea and that people shouldn’t do it, regardless if it’s offered and if there’s a demand. Law, also, does not determine good or bad.

 

[crofrog]

Why not just teach CCR at the open water level?

 

[formernuke]

Why not just teach CCR at the open water level?

One unit allows OW to be taught on a rebreather. Personally I think that's to much for a new diver.

 

[gordonscuba]

One unit allows OW to be taught on a rebreather. Personally I think that's to much for a new diver.

There is a common class of misconceptions among non-CCR divers. I hear different variations on this theme, but roughly it's the belief that a rebreather is a nice self-contained little unit that is just a better version of, and a replacement for, any use of a scuba bottle. Like a super-tank that will eventually replace a tank once people get used to the idea.

Of course, true rebreather divers recognize this as a fallacy. The unit I use, like most of the type T CCR units on the market, involves three scuba bottles, three regulators, two computers, two counterlungs, a scrubber which can kill you if improperly packed, mushroom valves that can kill you if improperly installed, 100% oxygen in one of the tanks and certain components which have to be kept oxygen clean, others which need to be sterilized. You still have to know all of the recovery and safety procedures you learn in OW, plus lots more rebreather-specific bailout conditions. Frequent checking and interpretation of the readings from three independent oxygen sensors. Most of the instructors I know are not huge fans of more automated units which still have to somehow solve all of these issues without assuming very much capability on the part of the user.

A local skydiving outfit doesn't allow skydivers to take a GoPro on their first 100 jumps, because they tend to worry more about their photographs and make a mistake. Rebreathers are like that, but much much more.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Why not just teach CCR at the open water level?

This is what was done here in Italy starting in 1949 and ending in 1980. An ARO (CC pure-oxygen rebreather) was the basic first SCUBA system employed in first-level diving courses.
An Italian anomaly, I would say, as in most other countries these ARO units were never so popular (and cheap) as here...
In this photo you see three students at the first contact with an ARO, in a pool, during their OW course:

DISCLAIMER: I am a bit biased on this point, as I was trained with the ARO in 1975, and my Cmas *** Instructor certification allows me to use these CC rebreathers down to 10m, and to teach new students using them (currently only down to 6m).

 

[Celt]

There is a common class of misconceptions among non-CCR divers

CCR divers must have been non-CCR divers at some stage
Did you actually believe , “that a rebreather is a nice self-contained little unit that is just a better version of, and a replacement for, any use of a scuba bottle. Like a super-tank that will eventually replace a tank once people get used to the idea.

 

[Wibble]

Why not just teach CCR at the open water level?

Can you do it in 4 days?

OW can be done quickly. Can't see how CCR's many many foibles could be covered in that time, along with doing all the basics such as mask clearing using your flippers and breathing tube.