Should OW Courses Be Expensive?

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While discount courses shouldn't mean lowered standards, the old sayings that "You get what you pay for" and "Let the buyer beware" still apply. Make sure you are getting a full quality course. If it's a zero to hero in 8 hours course, you are not getting enough time! Remember, certified does NOT mean qualified. A day of cramming academics + a marathon pool session is NOT the way to learn. There is just no way a weekend course can equal a multi day course with 30 to 40 or more hours of training. The instructor willing to put in all those hours deserves to be properly compensated for his/her time. That translates to a higher price. This is not including pool fees etc. Think of it this way - which way would you want someone you love to be taught - Sign today and be certified tomorrow or receive proper instruction till you are fully qualified to dive? Quality is always more expensive, but is generally well worth the added expense.
Take care,
George

Attempting to make a direct individual-case relationship of cost of the class and quality of the class simply can't be done. In a modern professional scuba diving store, a training class is a retail product, just like any other retail product. While the smart fiscal objective is to make a predetermined markup on each product you retail, it does not always work that way. Lowering or raising the price of a scuba class to meet current market conditions, local economic situations, and local competitive forces is simply par for the course from a business sense. Many of the costs are fixed and will be paid even if there are no students. Further, there is nothing wrong with teaching classes, even for free if on chooses, as a method of customer acquisition. These things are standard business.

Saying, as a blanket statement, that less expensive classes are worse in quality than more expensive classes is simply silly. It ignores the precepts of standard business modeling. It is further silly to assume that instructors are "more poorly compensated" in cheaper classes than in more expensive classes. My instructors are paid EXACTLY the same, regardless of how much we charge for the class. The quality is the same. The standards never change. I know of no situation where we said "Hey, lets get this class over real quick. Lets cut some corners. These people paid less for the class, so we can't afford to do it the normal way".

Broadly generalizing about price/time/quality relationships about scuba training is pretty common, and making automatic assumptions that less expensive training is taking scuba diving to "hell in a handbasket" is a very populist approach. That doesn't mean the approach is correct.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com
 
shops often do OW classes as "loss leaders" to get new customers in the shop.

If you were an independent instructor with no rental gear or compressor, it wouldn't be cheap to certify students

rental gear for pool sessions $25/day, 2 days............. $50.00
tanks rental/fills for pool, $8each, 2/day, 2 days......... $32.00
OW Books/materials/tables, etc .............................. $60.00
agency fee ($35 to $50 est depending on agency........$50.00
rental gear for checkout dives $25/day, 2 days.......... $50.00
tanks rental/fills checkout dives , $8ea 2/day, 2 days...$32.00
Instructor fee/pay (estimate).................................. $50.00
--------------------------------------------------------------
Total on estimated 'cost'.......................................$324.00

You forgot pool rental.

Of course, if you were a successful indie in this for the long haul, it would make much more economic sense to buy gear, tanks, and perhaps compressor.
 
You forgot pool rental.

.

Yeah, your right....

but hard to itemize that "per student" seeing how classes are different sizes and pool rental differs per facility/usage...

I'm sure that there are other things I forgot also.


I basically was trying to say that dive instruction or OW classes were not money makers. Selling gear to students might be a money maker, in todays economy shops are having a hard time with that.


I also don't think the cost of the class has anything to do with the quality of instructor/instruction..... just too may different things to factor in.
 
In Denver the costs are as follows: note: Most shops are in this ballpark, I am providing my LDS rates which is A1 scuba, a PADI 5 star facility.

OW classroom/pool 2 full day, or 4 part day classes: $170
Course Materials: $100 (approx)
OW checkout diving not including gear: $160~$250 depending on location

So that is about $470 NOT including lodging, transportation, meals or Gear rental.

Gear rental for a complete package for students is $70 for the weekend.

That price is quite a bit higher than when I did my certification 5 years ago.

One can shave those costs by purchasing course materials on Ebay or online, but that is about the only way to save a few bucks.

So in this area it is NOT inexpensive to get certified IMO. Especially considering that an instructor may get paid $25 per student for each leg of the class (classroom, OW).

Seems to me in this area the dive shops are certainly charging enough to make a good living. The key is to get students in the door, and last I checked A1 was doing at LEAST 20 students a week, and likely more.
 
Attempting to make a direct individual-case relationship of cost of the class and quality of the class simply can't be done. In a modern professional scuba diving store, a training class is a retail product, just like any other retail product. While the smart fiscal objective is to make a predetermined markup on each product you retail, it does not always work that way. Lowering or raising the price of a scuba class to meet current market conditions, local economic situations, and local competitive forces is simply par for the course from a business sense. Many of the costs are fixed and will be paid even if there are no students. Further, there is nothing wrong with teaching classes, even for free if on chooses, as a method of customer acquisition. These things are standard business.

Saying, as a blanket statement, that less expensive classes are worse in quality than more expensive classes is simply silly. It ignores the precepts of standard business modeling. It is further silly to assume that instructors are "more poorly compensated" in cheaper classes than in more expensive classes. My instructors are paid EXACTLY the same, regardless of how much we charge for the class. The quality is the same. The standards never change. I know of no situation where we said "Hey, lets get this class over real quick. Lets cut some corners. These people paid less for the class, so we can't afford to do it the normal way".

Broadly generalizing about price/time/quality relationships about scuba training is pretty common, and making automatic assumptions that less expensive training is taking scuba diving to "hell in a handbasket" is a very populist approach. That doesn't mean the approach is correct.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

Hi Phil,
Please check the first sentences of my post - "While discount courses shouldn't mean lowered standards, the old sayings that "You get what you pay for" and "Let the buyer beware" still apply. Make sure you are getting a full quality course." In other words, if you are going to take a lower priced course, make sure it is totally up to the standards of the agency it is taught through. Nowhere did I say in that post that less expensive training is taking scuba diving to "hell in a handbasket" I was saying for the consumer to make sure that they aren't getting a low price course because someone is cutting corners. As far as quality goes - it generally is more expensive, and rightfully so. IMHO, part of a quality course is to give the students sufficient time to truly master their skills, not just doing them a few times and then moving on. There is no way to compare a course that gives a student 8 - 10 hours pool time to one that gives 20+ hours. Yes, the 8 hour student can become certified, no doubt about that. BUT, how many times have you read on scubaboard, let alone seen certified divers who cannot assemble their own equipment; who have no buoyancy skills, etc. This usually boils down to 2 things - the instructor and practice time. Let's assume for the moment, that a high quality instructor teaches a weekend course and a 40+ hour course. Instruction is the same in each course, same agency, same standards. The ONLY difference is the amount of time the students have to practice and be mentored. While there are always exceptions, I think it is safe to say that the students with the most mentoring and practice time will have it over the other class. A weekend zero to hero course cannot have the same quality as a 40+ hour course just based on the extended mentoring and practice time in the longer course alone, all else being equal. I am NOT saying that a weekend course cannot meet standards - they can as we all well know.
As far as a course being a retail product, yes it can be looked at that. It can also be looked at as a passion and an enjoyment to share knowledge with someone. We combine both. Our instructors make sure the students are qualified, NOT just certified, and that takes more time and money. Our model is to produce qualified students who get certified, not just certified students who are not qualified. IMHO, a course without quality is no course at all.
Take care,
George
 
Ok... let's get down to cases... let's say, for the sake of argument, you were the instructor running a dive shop... NOW what do you think OW is worth?

As far a 'quality'... that to me is a non issue... you do it right (oops... did I say that???) or don't bother doing it at all...
 
Please check the first sentences of my post - "While discount courses shouldn't mean lowered standards, the old sayings that "You get what you pay for" and "Let the buyer beware" still apply. Make sure you are getting a full quality course." In other words, if you are going to take a lower priced course, make sure it is totally up to the standards of the agency it is taught through.

I applaud the idea of a longer course with MANY more hours in the pool. But you have to sell that 40 hour program in competition with a 20 hour program. Even if the cost was identical, the student would probably opt for the shorter program just to get it over with. After all, they're not interested in classes, they want to go diving. Qualified or not.

On other threads various SBers have listed questions to ask a shop/instructor before signing up for a class. Not going to happen! The prospective student walks in, asks how much a course costs and how long it takes. They don't know enough to ask intelligent questions.

The current model is the 20 hour program (I'm guessing at the hours) and, for worse or worse yet, that's the way it is. Selling a longer program has to be difficult.

The problem with these threads is they always start with the assumption that new divers are unqualified. While it may be true, they aren't dying at a rate that raises any eyebrows in government. Sure, they may not be good divers, they may not be comfortable in the water and they may not stay in the sport very long but if they want more training it's available. All they have to do is ask. It's pretty easy to get that next 20 hours by signing up for AOW.

So, just for giggles, of those of you with shops, how many OW divers do you train annually? How many AOW and how many Rescue? It wouldn't surprise me that OW is 10 times AOW which is 2 times Rescue. But that's just a guess. With such a curve, it is reasonable to assume one of two things: The OW diver leaves the sport OR they continue to dive, blissfully unaware that they should be taking more classes.

Richard
 
When I learned to dive the course cost was $300 all inclusive which means it included the pool and OW dives, gear, books, air, etc. The instruction was great but I would have paid 3 times that amount if I had the ability to do the class in a backplate/wing and learn some other skills ans tips that I had to learn the hard way.

Learning things like regulators needed to be specially adjusted or designed for cold water and learning different finning techniques would have added to the value of the course greatly. The biggest thing I wish I had learned was proper buoyancy and trim techniques.

That was years ago though so I dont know if it has changed with that instructor or not.
 
Yes, the 8 hour student can become certified, no doubt about that. BUT, how many times have you read on scubaboard, let alone seen certified divers who cannot assemble their own equipment; who have no buoyancy skills, etc. This usually boils down to 2 things - the instructor and practice time. Let's assume for the moment, that a high quality instructor teaches a weekend course and a 40+ hour course. Instruction is the same in each course, same agency, same standards. The ONLY difference is the amount of time the students have to practice and be mentored.

This SOUNDS good, but is it true? The ONE factor, and maybe main factor that is not listed here is the time the STUDENTS are willing to take to lean the skills.

We had a class of eight if memory serves. We started at 7:00am on a Saturday morning. The classwork, and pool work were done by maybe 2:00pm. At that point the instructors indicated that we could spend as much time in the water as we wanted to practice skills, assemble gear, whatever. Only three of us stayed....

This was true for both days of the classroom/pool sessions.

I know of no dive shop that does 40 hours of classroom/pool work. The collage does teach an extended course but they do NOT expect the student to show up with any book knowledge.

I've watched both college and LDS OW classes UW during their CO dives. I'm not sure that extended classroom or pool sessions better prepare students to do CO dives. On top of that the college classes tend to be much largeer, so individual instructor attention might come into question.
 
I don't know how small dive shops make enough money to stay in business. I've been working with an LDS and will be a DM soon, and hopefully an instructor within another year. But I have a day job and am not teaching for the money. (If I'm lucky it'll pay for my insurance, that's all I ask.) I also have no interest in being an independent instructor -- I'd end up losing money!

I do have a passion for diving and teaching, and that's why I want to be a scuba instructor.

My non-diving friends who are somewhat interested in diving, the first thing they ask is, "how much does it cost to get certified?"

So I suppose shops have to offer cheap OW courses and hope the student gets the dive bug bad enough to start buying equipment and continuing ed courses.

Like I said, I don't know how y'all stay in business.
 
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