Should OW certified divers be taken into a deep wreck? Overhead? Thread split

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm teaching my wife to be a wreck diver.... It's a long process... I had her on the Hilma Hooker 4 times before I let her do her first swim through a overhead cabin... And hours of talking about all the stuff to be looking out for... I don't know how someone can just take a diver into a overhead environment on a " JUST FOLLOW ME " dive... They are selling a amusement park ride...

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Jim...

Now if you can just get someone to teach you underwater photography..

 

[oldschoolto]

Now if you can just get someone to teach you underwater photography..

I just read your post out load to my wife.... She is still LAUGHING.....

Jim...

 

[Akimbo]

... I don't know how someone can just take a diver into a overhead environment on a " JUST FOLLOW ME " dive... They are selling a amusement park ride...

True, but there appears to be a market for that. I doubt that more than 5% of the divers at Truk have any wreck or formal decompression training yet divers follow guides through the bowels of ships built before the First World War and have been underwater since the Second. Many also follow their computers, which largely defines their understanding of decompression theory. Apparently they have learned to successfully pull it off the vast majority of the time.

You are teaching your wife wreck diving done right. Basic wreck courses teach a few things you might want to think about. A well-taught advanced diving course on most any subject “should” motivate students to contemplate, study, and analyze the subject at least 10x more than the time invested in the course itself.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I just read your post out load to my wife.... She is still LAUGHING.....

Jim...

I'm glad you both have a sense of humor. Here's an old (terrible) video I shot with my first Gopro (860 or something) with taking my 10 yr old inside a wreck in 80 feet. People had a cow about it when I first posted it.


[video]https://youtu.be/w2NcsMdOWLA[/video]

 

[Jim Lapenta]

So in your mind the Bus is off limits to your OW or AOW students? Not judging I am asking - I have taken my son through the bus and I was curious of your position.
Thanks.

If you are talking about the bus at gilboa, yes. You need to enter through the back door window or through the windshield. The seats are all still in. There is about 2 1/2 to 3 ft of clearance. I've seen ow divers hit the reg on the windshield frame, get hung up, and for those with dangling gauges and octos the seat frames pose a risk. plus it's long enough for three maybe four people to go through. For MY ow and aow students it's an overhead and off limits.

 

[oldschoolto]

Now if you can just get someone to teach you underwater photography..

Ok.... I do have some pictures that are ok....


Jim...

 

[NAM001]

Its sad that this topic doesn’t just die.The same discussions repeated over and over again, in thread after thread.With the same illogical positions being taken

The continuing positions are.

Any limitations in OW is for training time only.
There are no limits in recreational diving except 130 ft.
A mile into a cave is the same as swimming under an anchor chain.One side says no go and the other says no problem.
Overhead environment is a definition issue and not a hard overhead restriction.
Im your buddy till something goes wrong and then you are on your own.
If you get hurt then too bad you are an adult and the operator has your wavier along with your George.
There are courses to cover the holes.What holes when there are no limits??
There are courses for extending skills and limits.( limits only apply to training sessions)???
It is a greater crime to not tip the crew than it is to dump a diver into water they are not prepared for.
Any limitations if excepted is conditional on experience and you get experience by pushing the limits that only exist in training sessions..

All the while new divers are doing trust me dives based on the experience of who is taking them and not the experience of them selves. Which again all is well until someone gets hurt and then You are on your own and you should have known better.

Is there anything in the OW course that is a hard rule that should be obeyed beyond the traiing session? By example no depth limits,no overhead limits.No gas limits,
Do we ad to that list,,,,,, a buddy is only necessary in training sessions. An octo is a training equipment requiremenet only. You cant touch the coral but you can crawl into the belly of a wreck if you equip yourself with the right definitions. Definitions never got any one out of trouble, that's the purpose of skill sets. which again is only necessary during training sessions.

Im glad that so many of you do not teach fire arms.

----always know your target
---- always keep your barrel pointing up
-----always wear bright clothing
-----Never discharge your weapon unless you know what is down range..

Lastly these rules are only for training sessions. We will be playing the 44mag version of William tell in the parking lot.

 

[boulderjohn]

Just a few comments:

The continuing positions are.

Any limitations in OW is for training time only.

This is necessarily true because scuba INSTRUCTION agencies are only authorized to limit the rules for instruction done in their names. I have certifications from 5 agencies--which one gets to tell me the rules for my personal dives? One of those agencies says I can only dive air or nitrox to 100 feet maximum. Another says I can dive air/nitrox to 165 feet maximum. Which one gets to rule my life? During a given year, Wookie could potentially have divers with certifications from more than 100 agencies. Which one gets to set the rules for his boat?

There are no limits in recreational diving except 130 ft.

As I read Wookie's post on that matter, even that limit comes from his insurance, not a scuba agency. Other insurance companies may have other rules. The Small Hope Bay dive operation on Andros Island in the Bahamas regularly takes OW divers to 150 feet.

A mile into a cave is the same as swimming under an anchor chain.One side says no go and the other says no problem.

Some people do say that swimming under the anchor chain is the same as swimming a mile back into a cave, and they say no one should be allowed to do either. The ones who do not agree that they are the same thing do not say it is no problem to go a mile into a cave. They say the first one is OK for most divers, but the other requires special training.

Overhead environment is a definition issue and not a hard overhead restriction.

I have no idea what that means.

Im your buddy till something goes wrong and then you are on your own.

Never heard that one in this thread.

If you get hurt then too bad you are an adult and the operator has your wavier along with your George.

Never heard that one in this thread.

There are courses to cover the holes.What holes when there are no limits??

Because there are no LEGAL limits, courses exist to teach people how to make good decisions in lieu of those missing limits.

There are courses for extending skills and limits.( limits only apply to training sessions)???

Because there are no LEGAL limits, courses exist to teach people how to make good decisions in lieu of those missing limits when they are diving outside of training.

It is a greater crime to not tip the crew than it is to dump a diver into water they are not prepared for.

Missed that one, too.

Any limitations if excepted is conditional on experience and you get experience by pushing the limits that only exist in training sessions..

Your original personal limits come from your initial training. You extend those limits over time by a combination of continuing education, diving with experienced friends, practice within your limits, and gradually extending those limits on your own.

Is there anything in the OW course that is a hard rule that should be obeyed beyond the traiing session? By example no depth limits,no overhead limits.No gas limits,
Do we ad to that list,,,,,, a buddy is only necessary in training sessions. An octo is a training equipment requiremenet only. You cant touch the coral but you can crawl into the belly of a wreck if you equip yourself with the right definitions. Definitions never got any one out of trouble, that's the purpose of skill sets. which again is only necessary during training sessions.

As explained above, there are no hard rules outside of training because no agency has the authority to set those rules. They can only provide the best education with the best advice they can and hope people make good decisions when they are on their own.

 

[oldschoolto]

Its sad that this topic doesn’t just die.The same discussions repeated over and over again, in thread after thread.With the same illogical positions being taken

The continuing positions are.

Any limitations in OW is for training time only.
There are no limits in recreational diving except 130 ft.
A mile into a cave is the same as swimming under an anchor chain.One side says no go and the other says no problem.
Overhead environment is a definition issue and not a hard overhead restriction.
Im your buddy till something goes wrong and then you are on your own.
If you get hurt then too bad you are an adult and the operator has your wavier along with your George.
There are courses to cover the holes.What holes when there are no limits??
There are courses for extending skills and limits.( limits only apply to training sessions)???
It is a greater crime to not tip the crew than it is to dump a diver into water they are not prepared for.
Any limitations if excepted is conditional on experience and you get experience by pushing the limits that only exist in training sessions..

All the while new divers are doing trust me dives based on the experience of who is taking them and not the experience of them selves. Which again all is well until someone gets hurt and then You are on your own and you should have known better.

Is there anything in the OW course that is a hard rule that should be obeyed beyond the traiing session? By example no depth limits,no overhead limits.No gas limits,
Do we ad to that list,,,,,, a buddy is only necessary in training sessions. An octo is a training equipment requiremenet only. You cant touch the coral but you can crawl into the belly of a wreck if you equip yourself with the right definitions. Definitions never got any one out of trouble, that's the purpose of skill sets. which again is only necessary during training sessions.

Im glad that so many of you do not teach fire arms.

----always know your target
---- always keep your barrel pointing up
-----always wear bright clothing
-----Never discharge your weapon unless you know what is down range..

Lastly these rules are only for training sessions. We will be playing the 44mag version of William tell in the parking lot.

WHY WOULD YOU WANT THIS TO DIE ????

And just for you to know... Never ever point the barrel up when in a Chopper....

Jim...

---------- Post added March 12th, 2015 at 11:02 AM ----------

I'm glad you both have a sense of humor. Here's an old (terrible) video I shot with my first Gopro (860 or something) with taking my 10 yr old inside a wreck in 80 feet. People had a cow about it when I first posted it.


[video]https://youtu.be/w2NcsMdOWLA[/video]

Love the look of your son driving the boat... That was me , But I did it all SOLO... My wife swears my mom was trying to get rid of me... " OH, Little jimmy wants to go diving solo on a wreck at 130', Isn't that cute... He's such a aventura .... " Here is the video of hilma hooker...

Bonaire Diving - The Hilma Hooker - YouTube

Jim...

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

If you are talking about the bus at gilboa, yes.

I was thinking Dutch Springs - has the helicopter and bus - no seats in the bus - swim in the back door and leave via the front door.