Shearwater Perdix AI

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AI's calculation of gas-time remaining helps this kind of diver maximize gas time the same way a computer's calculation of NDLs helps this kind of diver maximize bottom time. If I understood correctly, I believe Stuart pointed out the inconsistency in an argument that it's okay to rely on a computer's calculation of NDL but not okay to rely on a computer's calculation of GTR. I would think those who are okay with stretching no-deco time would be just as okay with stretching their gas supply. I still use an SPG because I enjoy the simplicity of it and was trained to do it that way. Also, I like to leave large safety buffers and am often back on the boat with a large amount of gas left, not to mention no-deco time left. However, if I were less risk-averse and willing to leave smaller safety buffers, I could envision how riding my computer's GTR display might allow me to extend my bottom time the same way riding my computer's NDL display might allow me to extend my bottom time.

This thought is often posted with a negative connotation. People post about divers "riding their NDL" where the context strongly implies (or even specifies) that the poster regards this as a very poor or unsafe behavior. I'm not saying you've done that here, by the way.

I want to note my own observation that I think this attitude is counterproductive.

What if I set my computer to GF 30/70 (or some equivalently conservative setting for calculating NDL)? And what if I set my AI computer's gas reserve to be 1000 psi? In that case, what is wrong with riding the NDL and the GTR? Those settings seem pretty conservative to me. I want to arrive at the surface with a GF99 no higher than 70% and be at the surface with 1000 psi left in my tank. If I use those settings and ride the NDL and the GTR, what's the problem? If I push the limits and then have an issue, I still have a very large safety margin.

Like I said, I think talking about "riding the NDL" or even "riding the GTR" in a way the implies that that is AUTOMATICALLY bad does a disservice to the community and especially to the divers with less experience. I mean, what tech diver who uses GF30/70 does NOT ride his computer? Riding your computer is NOT inherently bad. Instead of making people feel like it is wrong to ride their computer, shouldn't we instead be talking about making sure people understand what their settings mean and making sure they choose appropriately conservative settings?

It is good that NDL has a pretty standard meaning. We all know that it means time to go to the surface and safety stops are optional. If some computers calculated NDL with an assumption of a 3 minute safety stop and others didn't, that would muddy the waters and make it confusing for everyone.

Sadly, that is where we currently are with GTR. And now Shearwater has really screwed the pooch (in my opinion) by not only calculating GTR differently than any other OEM, as far as I know, but calculating it in a way that is worse and less intuitive than anybody else does it. To the best of my knowledge, some computers calculate GTR as "the time at current depth until you reach the reserve pressure." That is the most simple and easiest to understand. On those computers, if you're at 100' and the GTR reads "1", and your reserve setting is 500 psi, then you know that if you stay at your current depth and keep breathing the same, in 1 minute, you will literally be at 500 psi. Simple. Easy to understand. Not what we really want - but at least it's very simple and easy to understand. Set your reserve setting to whatever you want your pressure to be when you start your ascent (based on the planned depth, etc.) and go.

The Oceanic (et al) GTR is different. Not quite as simple to explain, but gives us (or, most of us, anyway) what we really want. It factors in depth so that it tells when we have to start our ascent to get to the surface with the desired reserve, including all stops that the computer will require or suggest. In the case of the Oceanic algorithm, it has extra safety built in because it includes optional stop times. So, if I follow the computer exactly, I'll hit the surface with my desired reserve. But, if I choose to skip an optional stop, then I'll get to the surface with MORE gas left than my reserve setting calls for. The boat captain says "be back on the boat with 500 psi" and the Oceanic algorithm allows people to do exactly that and without having to do mental math during their dive.

In contrast, the new Shearwater method works in a way that, if I follow the computer, doing all the stops that are required or suggested, I will actually get to the surface with LESS air than my configured reserve setting. To be sure, the difference is expected to be small as we're generally talking about doing a shallow safety stop that is not accounted for in the GTR calculation. You don't expect to use much gas at a 3-minute, 15 foot stop. Nevertheless, a calculation that leaves you LESS gas when following the computer is clearly not AS safe as a calculation that leaves you MORE gas.

Imagine: A rec diver gets a new Perdix AI. They are about to do a dive on a reef with a 60' hard bottom. Their NDL is going to be so long that they know they'll have to end the dive because of low gas. Because it's fairly shallow, they decide they are okay with getting back to the boat with 200 psi left. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has seen numerous divers get back on the boat with that much gas left. So, this diver sets the PAI reserve to 200 and jumps in. When his computer hits 0 on the GTR meter, he begins his ascent, following the computer exactly, doing an exact 30 ft/min ascent. He gets to 20' and the computer tells him to do a 3 minute safety stop. Now, because of the way the PAI works, during his safety stop he actually breathes his tank down past 200 psi and suddenly realizes he's still at 20' depth and has just breathed his tank down so low that he can no longer draw a breath. There is clearly a bad choice being made right off the bat, in this scenario. But, the Shearwater implementation for GTR also clearly contributes significantly to the diver going OOA.

It would be helpful to the whole community if GTR were standardized, like NDL, so that everyone knows what it means and it means the same thing on every AI computer - and it is as accurate as possible when you follow the computer exactly (including doing any safety stops the computer calls for).
 
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By that logic, the SPG is a gimmick too... not all of us are claiming that AI solves a problem - however, it certainly provides a more convenient way to view tank pressure versus the SPG as well as additional and very useful automatic data logging (and GTR as well).

"Certainly" for you. I assume you don't mean to assert that everyone finds wireless AI to be more convenient than an SPG.
 
AJ:
No, but I'am also not aware of someone getting in trouble by not having this information through AI :wink:Let's face it, AI is a gimmick. A usefull gimmick, but not something you need or even something you should need. If AI solves a problem for you you better solve the problem first.
None of the reasons for my prospective purchase that I posted above are "problems" as such. They are fairly minor items, which when added together, will , I believe, make for a more enjoyable dive for me. I can see the extra dimension added by AI as being of more help to me post dive when looking at my profile and analysing where my consumption gets better or worse. As I say, I am at the point with my diving where I am comfortable doing different types of dives but as to working out a relatively accurate SAC, that would prove difficult as my diving has been so varied.
Examples below (SAC provided via subsurface)
Dives 1-4 OW, depths 9-10m, SAC ranges from 38-24l/m
Dives 5-8 - weekend trip so fun dives but varied shore dive profiles as noted in my post above , depths 8-19m - SAC range 42-24l/m
Dives 9-15 - AOW including PPB (split in two 20 minute dives due to buddies equipment issues) + 1 aborted dive due to poor vis, depths 5-24m - SAC range 41-25l/m.
Dives 16-20 weekend trip - varied sites & currents, depths 10-18m SAC range 32-23l/m
Dive 21-40 various dives on Red Sea LOB - reefs/ & wrecks with night dives, surge, currents etc, depths 10-31m. SAC range 28-23l/m

So for on the fly calcs, I use something between 42 and 23L/m for working out possible duration/consumption. Or I could get an idea from the on the fly SAC that the computer gets me - not so much to ride it to the minute but as a guide. For example the plan for our shore dives is to return with 50 bar in about 40 minutes (doing a roughly square route) so approx 10 minute legs. If I see my SAC climb due to current etc, we can shorten the legs/ cut one off if required(it is fairly common to come back with 100 BAR+)

I can appreciate experienced divers will know what their SAC will be give or take a minor variation. Once I get a few hundred dives in, I will have a body of data that I can draw statistically significant data from - at the moment I have a set of disparate dives where the data is inconsistent due to various circumstances. Drawing conclusions from that data is risky at best.

I think it is similar to a lot of things - do we need computers with integrated compasses? No they are a gimmick - there is nothing wrong with a traditional magnetic compass. Nice to have though? Yes.

@stuartv - the diving world can't even standardise SAC/RMV or whatever else you want to call it (as highlighted in the many threads where it is referred to) so what chance of standardising anything else.
 
I can't say I appreciate the advantage of being able to see my gas pressure on my wrist rather than a separate SPG, but others have said that it can be helpful in certain situations, such as when you're hanging on for dear life in a current. I don't foresee myself diving in conditions that are so difficult that I can't easily check my SPG.

To me this is more about the convenience of seeing ALL dive data in one place (right out in front of you if diving in proper trim) versus needing to monitor 2 separate instruments in 2 different places - not a big deal, but a nice-to-have!

As far as the data logging capability of AI, I guess some people find analyzing their data to be a fun exercise, but I sure don't. I calculate my SAC infrequently, and if I am planning something that I know is likely to stress me, I simply figure I'll need more gas than my SAC would indicate, maybe using a figure of 1 cfm if really stressed. I see no need for, and would derive no fun from, minute dissection of logged data. But some of you may. I think I referred to you (in good fun) as data nerds earlier in this thread or a similar one. If logging and analyzing dive data floats your boat, have at it. Some people just enjoy the idea of control panels with lots of data and measurements and that sort of thing. A surprising number of divers, especially tec divers, seem to be engineers and scientists. I'm a former engineer, and I don't enjoy numbers as much as I used to. I'm looking forward to the day when I can measure time in units of a season. Until then, I'll reluctantly deal with minutes and PSI to the minimum extent necessary to safely dive.

For me it is not so so much analyzing in detail on every dive, but having the ability to go back and see how I reacted to a situation on a particulate dive/portion of a dive later will be good for learning and better understanding my air consumption. I also like the fact that my start and end pressure is automatically captured in case I can't accurately recall it for log entry later (esp on days with multiple dives). I have used this to track my RMV as I've gained more experience - For example, my 1st OW dive had an RMV of 1.23 cu. ft./min while my last dive (# 42) shows me down to 0.52 cu. ft./min.

As others have repeatedly said, we're all different. For some kinds of diving, AI may provide benefits, and for other kinds it may just be an expensive toy. Again, whatever floats your boat.
Exactly!
 
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@stuartv - the diving world can't even standardise SAC/RMV or whatever else you want to call it (as highlighted in the many threads where it is referred to) so what chance of standardising anything else.

We seem to have standardised what NDL means.

And, the confusion on SAC/RMV does not seem to be a confusion on how to calculate it. It's just ambiguity when the term is used regarding whether the person who says it means "psi/bar per minute" or if they mean "cu-ft/liters per minute". Once that distinction is understood, then how it is calculated does not seem to be in dispute.

Similarly, whether you call it ATR or GTR or any other label, I think we could at least hope for some standardization on the way it is calculated. Especially since Oceanic/Aeris/Hollis (and probably Sherwood and AquaLung, since it seems that PPS makes their computers, too) seems to be already doing it the way most of us would want and we just need the others to get on board with that way of doing it.
 
"Certainly" for you. I assume you don't mean to assert that everyone finds wireless AI to be more convenient than an SPG.
If you use a dive computer and an SPG, you need to monitor 2 devices in 2 different locations. With an AI computer, you only need to look at the 1 device (your dive computer) you would have already been monitoring to get the same info (and more, with SAC/GTR available). So to me that is more convenient for anyone. However, I get that this convenience might not be meaningful to everyone and many prefer to not use AI and monitor 2 devices. As as been said a few times here: use whatever works for you - but it is nice to have choices!
 
We seem to have standardised what NDL means.

And, the confusion on SAC/RMV does not seem to be a confusion on how to calculate it. It's just ambiguity when the term is used regarding whether the person who says it means "psi/bar per minute" or if they mean "cu-ft/liters per minute". Once that distinction is understood, then how it is calculated does not seem to be in dispute.

Similarly, whether you call it ATR or GTR or any other label, I think we could at least hope for some standardization on the way it is calculated. Especially since Oceanic/Aeris/Hollis (and probably Sherwood and AquaLung, since it seems that PPS makes their computers, too) seems to be already doing it the way most of us would want and we just need the others to get on board with that way of doing it.
Agreed about NDL - that is pretty standard.

The issue comes about with SAC/RMV - when a figure is quoted (without any explanation to how it was derived) it is difficult to compare. If it was standardised that it only ever referred to cubic volume of gas used per minute, that would simplify things.

So long as you know what each manufacturers ATR/GTR etc means, you can work with it. If you know one computers variant includes stops, fine. If you know another computers doesn't, you make allowance for those stops yourself by either reserving more gas or by remembering how much ATR you need to allow for your stops.
 
This thought is often posted with a negative connotation. People post about divers "riding their NDL" where the context strongly implies (or even specifies) that the poster regards this as a very poor or unsafe behavior. I'm not saying you've done that here, by the way.

I want to note my own observation that I think this attitude is counterproductive.

What if I set my computer to GF 30/70 (or some equivalently conservative setting for calculating NDL)? And what if I set my AI computer's gas reserve to be 1000 psi? In that case, what is wrong with riding the NDL and the GTR? Those settings seem pretty conservative to me. I want to arrive at the surface with a GF99 no higher than 70% and be at the surface with 1000 psi left in my tank. If I use those settings and ride the NDL and the GTR, what's the problem? If I push the limits and then have an issue, I still have a very large safety margin.

. . .

Agreed. I suppose I picked up the term "riding the NDL" right here on SB, but I didn't mean it to carry any negative connotation it might have. By "riding," I simply meant following the computer's NDL display (or for that matter, the SPG's reading) to make an on-the-fly decision of when to ascend, instead of any other advance planning. Setting your GF and gas reserve that way, knowing at least roughly how that is going to relate to your bottom time at the planned depth(s), is a form of advance planning.

However, with such conservative setpoints the computer isn't providing that much of a benefit, is it? I mean, if you're cutting it that roughly, you could simply begin your ascent based on estimates. If I'm at X depth with Y PSI remaining, I have a rough idea whether I need to ascend some in order to have enough gas remaining should I need to do an air-sharing ascent with my buddy. If I'm conservative, I don't need a computer to calculate that for me. And I do often surface with 1000 psi or more.
 
If you use a dive computer and an SPG, you need to monitor 2 devices in 2 different locations.

But how frequently do I need to check my pressure? Depending on the dive, I may not look at my SPG very often at all. It's there when I need to look at it, clipped to my BC, and I have developed enough muscle memory that I can unclip it, look at, and clip it off again in just a few seconds. I am admittedly no @Kevrumbo when it comes to mental arithmetic, but I leave a large safety buffer of gas, and I have a rough idea based on the depth and time--as confirmed by checking my SPG--when I need to start my ascent. Maybe that's just something developed by doing the same kind of dive many times. Is the marginal cost of an AI computer and transmitter, the inconvenience of batteries, more numbers to read on the display, etc., actually more convenient or less convenient? To you, I guess it is more convenient. Not to me--at least not for the way I presently dive. As I said, we're all different. I try to limit my comments to me.
 
But how frequently do I need to check my pressure? Depending on the dive, I may not look at my SPG very often at all. It's there when I need to look at it, clipped to my BC, and I have developed enough muscle memory that I can unclip it, look at, and clip it off again in just a few seconds. I am admittedly no @Kevrumbo when it comes to mental arithmetic, but I leave a large safety buffer of gas, and I have a rough idea based on the depth and time--as confirmed by checking my SPG--when I need to start my ascent. Maybe that's just something developed by doing the same kind of dive many times. Is the marginal cost of an AI computer and transmitter, the inconvenience of batteries, more numbers to read on the display, etc., actually more convenient or less convenient? To you, I guess it is more convenient. Not to me--at least not for the way I presently dive. As I said, we're all different. I try to limit my comments to me.
Fair enough - as a new diver, I still check my SPG frequently to avoid any issues on low gas (it's clipped to my upper left D-ring so just need to look down and to the left a bit). The convenience for me is about having all relevant info in 1 place - but I get that convenience may mean different things to different people. Thanks for the constructive dialogue!
 

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