Scuba source/Air II on Halcyon?

[Joe R.]

I love my halcyon rig. I love DIR...but here is where I put my head on the chopping block. I dive alot in the Northeast and H valves,Y valves nor doubles are practicle for some shallower dives. ie less than 80' for lobster. A single 80 is all you need. I think octopuses are gong the way of 'bungied wings' and I use a Seaquest scuba source on my wings as the second reg. I know of many dir advocates doing the same. I mentioned the idea to some gue people and could feel the phone lines tightening via thier backflips. When I mention it to the dive guru's I get that ,ever have a lawyer say "yes, you are correct,but I'l deny it if you put me on the stand"look or "off the record" or they pretend not hearing but they 'do' dive this way. And I think its smart in some cases. Simple is best. You may not have two first stages but you can buddy breath and you do have two second stages and if your buddy does then where is the problem. I think that expression a member recently used "dir natzi" is a riot. But some people do have that mentality. My way or the highway...when they're snagged in a briar patch. What do "you" think,thanks Joe R. :boom:

 

[newton]

Originally posted by Joe R.
I think octopuses are gong the way of 'bungied wings' and I use a Seaquest scuba source on my wings as the second reg.
...
What do "you" think?

I'm not a big fan of many of the DIR attitudes, but the DIR mindset and equipment configuration has a lot to offer. Because of the DIR influence, my wife and I practice OAA drills quite often, so I'm very familiar with how the Air-II works, since my wife's old BC uses an AirII. (We replaced that BC yesterday with a Halcyon BP/wing setup, see the other thread I just started).

Having spent months using an Air-II for OAA drills, I will *NOT* stick it on the new Halcyon wing, and we went back to using the two 2nd stage setup. Basically, using the AirII for an OAA emergency is very unsafe in my opinion.

The reason for the Octo/redundant second stage is so that in an OAA situation, you can easily provide air to your buddy. If your buddy is out of Air (due to equipment failures or whatever), the dive is over. That means you need to get to the surface safely, which means a slow but controlled ascent to the surface, to avoid DCS and an air embolism.

Have you ever tried to do a controlled ascent while breathnig off of the combination regulator/BC inflator? It's tough to do (been there, done that, see above). It's nearly impossible to control your rate of ascent in a pool, so I can't imagine what it would be like with a panic'd person who is *really* out of air. Again, we've practiced this dozens of times, and we've yet to figure out a way to do a safe ascent using the AirII while someone is breathing off your primary. Even worse would be to have someone breathing off your AirII while you tried to control buoyancy using the same unit.

Yes, the Air-II is more streamlined, and allows you to remove a hose. However, this streamlining is not without it's cost. It essentially renders your octopus completely worthless for a real OAA emergency. Now, you may say that OAA's are rare, so don't bother. If so, why bother having an octupus at all? If it's not usable in a real emergency, then it's not worth having at all. You can become even more streamlined that way. (Note, I'm not suggestion this as a realistic solution.)

So, while it may make you more streamlined, I believe it makes you safer. We've gone with the DIR-like long-hose and necklaced 2nd stages setup. At first glance, it seemed like it would be cumbersome and awkward to use, but it actually works pretty well if you have the right hoses. Make sure your necklaced 2nd stage uses a short hose, or you'll find that it tends to pull a bit when you use it, and make sure your long-hose is at least 6' long. (I think a 5' hose is too short to wrap around effectively, and I find that for singles, a 7' hose is too long.)

It's really a great setup. I found that my impressions of the long-hose setup were similar to my impression of the BP/wings. If you've never tried it out, it looks like it wouldn't be very comfortable. However, after trying it out, it works *very* well.

My answer to you is to take your AirII/Sherwood into the pool with a buddy and simulate an OOA situation at the bottom of the pool. Try to do a safe ascent to the surface. We've tried it by allowing the OAA person to use their BC (which is probably safe, since even when you can't breathe, there is usually enough air to inflate your BC), and although it's a bit easier, it's still unsafe.

Hope this helps!



Nate

 

[Divesherpa]

Finally, a DIR/(absolutely non DIR) question. Here's the thing, You wanna be DIR, or have someone tell you your personal preferences are DIR.
DIR has no flexibility for anything non-DIR. An Air-II is non-DIR.

Would it work on a 30 foot reef in Honduras? Absolutely! Would it work 4000 feet from the surface where buoyancy was of great importance? Absolutely not.

DIR is a technical mind set!! All the avid practitioners are cave divers who have to have an all inclusive setup. Some will say that DIR is for recreational diving just as much as for cave diving. To clarify this myth, who developed DIR?

Cave divers all the way.
DIR is a combination of many things from several training organizations. Nice package to sell gear from the manufacturers they are supported by.

Sorry to get off topic.

 

[Lost Yooper]

The DIR philosophy works equally well for recreational divers as it does for technical divers. It is not a "technical mindset" at all, but rather a holistic approach to scuba diving that applies to virtually all forms of sport diving. People who say otherwise generally haven't tried it or have some bone to pick with the attitudes of a few bad apples.

That said, if you're expecting me to say that an Air II will undoubtedly kill you for 40' reef dives, I won't. Newton pretty much summed up the issues of why Air II type devices are less than optimal. Simple is best, but not at the expense of efficiency and safety. These things have to co-exist for all dives and all environments and DIR does just that.

BTW, if it wasn't for cavers developing better ideas and equipment, where would this sport be?



Mike

OH yeah, if you hear "DIR advocates" advocating the use of gizmos like Air II's, then they aren't really DIR advocates.

 

[roakey]

A number of questions and, to be polite about it "continued spreading of false information" (to be less polite about it, lies) are contained in this note. First to address Joe R's note:

1) Can you put an Air II on a Halcyon wing? Sure.

2) Does this allow an optimal response in an emergency? No.

3) Will it kill you? Probably not, see #2.

4) Is it DIR? No, see #2.

5) Do you need dual cylinders, regs, Y or H valves to dive DIR recreationally? No.

As for Divesherpa’s two implied claims that DIR is for caving and that DIR is a marketing ploy… Time for Whack-a-mole again, surprisingly though it’s been a couple months since this misinformation has cropped up (go to http://www.scubaboard.com/t5636/s.html to see where it was addressed the last time.)

DIR is for cavers. Yup, no cave equipment should ever be used for recreational diving. All those inventions that cavers have come up with over the years like buoyancy compensators, second regulators for sharing air and especially that worthless piece of equipment, the submersible pressure gauge, have absolutely NO place in recreational diving!

You don’t need double cylinders and redundant first stages for recreational diving, but if you want to bring your recreational diving skills and equipment from the pedestrian to the exceptional, look at the cavers. Since I’ve taken cave training my recreational diving has improved by a magnitude, both in terms of ease and enjoyment.

DIR is a marketing ploy for Halcyon. If so, it’s the worst one on record, since of all the equipment you have to buy like exposure protection, regulators, cylinders, fins and all the other ancillary gear required to dive, they only supply the BC part. And GUE doesn’t care if you show up for training with an AUL backplate, a FredT backplate, an Abysmal backplate, a no-name backplate or a Halcyon backplate. As long as you HAVE a backplate.

So again, for the record:

DIR is not just for cavers. Delete one cylinder and one regulator and get a smaller lift wing and you have a superior setup for recreational diving.

DIR is not a marketing ploy. A backplate is a backplate, who cares what you get. Wings are available from several sources, though I feel that Halcyon makes the best. If DIR was a marketing ploy, why would Halcyon only be vying for $300 (for a wing) out of the multiple thousands that you’re paying for all your equipment?

I’m now taking a pool on how long until these claims are made again. It was going on three months since the last time.

Roak

 

[burnboy]

I just want to quickly reply to the use of an Air-2 on an OAA or using it at all. I have not been diving for many years but have spent the last two diving with and Air-2 as my backup 2nd stage. I have practiced many OAA with the Air-2. While it is not the most convienient of methods it does work. I have gone so far as to have a buddy air because they were out. I also had to do a 3 minute saftey stop with it. Not it was not fun but it did work. I believe the best thing to do is what you are comfortable with.

 

[Divesherpa]

Lost Yooper and Roakey,
I love getting you guys "slightly riled up" about once a month. I'm sure you are both excellent divers and you are definately DIR advocates.
Cheers

 

[Joe R.]

Most of the time I use an H valve,Y or (soon) doubles. I think is wise to use my 7' (w/o bungie) and rely on the Air II for the rare occasion I would need to share it while doing the -80' lobster,scallop dives (recreational) diving I was asking about. The ideal would be all my(single 80's) tanks rigged with Beauchat Y valves (they are nice) but I don't think it practical for the dives I'm describing. I know the 'dive the same rig' is best. I also often bring a stage bottle so it really is like having a third reg. in having the Air II. I too appreciate the suggestion of practicing sharing air. Which any dive buddies worth their salt should do.
I read a post by G. Irvine on how the 'Fla. cavers have done everything, are so much better,bla, bla, bla'....I don't subscribe to that thinking or the post. I too believe a lot is to be said for anyone who dives the North Atlantic, Big lakes,wrecks, etc. But not in the 'we're better than thou forum. Any good diver can learn from other good divers and improve in a given area.

 

[CCDeep]

I like the air 2 for recreational diving, I use one.

the downside to me is that it is somewhat more fragile (and perhaps less likely to get a good rinse) than some of the simpler, more bullet proof 2nd stages, but I can handle that.

the upside to me is that it is on such a short hose that I always know where it is. How many times have you seen that octopus get mis-routed or come out of its holder?

Before you give me a lecture on that last statement, I want to say that I recognize that 100% dir would fix that problem with necklaces, proper routing, double checks, good buddies, etc.

Let me go out on a limb (and perhaps even troll a bit) and say that if you choose not to go with a necklace, and if you can live with using short hoses in a sharing situation, the really short hose of the air 2 has some benefits. I know that I can always find my air 2. I am not certain that I can always find my octopus, unless I am using a necklace.

 

[Friggincold]

If your doing dives that only require an 80. Why are you taking a stage bottle with you? I'd say your not that much in love with DIR. I think the y valves are very apropriate for the dives your doing. I use H valves on 20' dives..
Friggincold