Scuba Extremists

[Wookie]

I have been dealing with scuba extremists lately, and it is beginning to bug me. I won't call them out here. I just wonder if it is possible for an extremist to look objectively at his or her own beliefs. I wonder if others can recognize when an extremist has gone too far.

I've changed my whole attitude towards sidemount based on what you and Bob have said. I'd never tell you that, but there you are. So, I believe that you can change an extremists mind.

 

[spoolin01]

In addition to the personality/ego aspects, it seems likely to me that some of the scuba extremism stems from the SB-over-representation of instructors, who are simply talking their book. Fear and the insinuation there's some vital wisdom you can have now by following them, for the low low price of $400, is presumed good for business. Not saying it's always overtly venal, just that it's part of what drives the presentation.

What's that quote - It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Not only true for politicians and executives.

<The primary enemy of the home brewer is bacterial infection>

The craft brewers appear to have circumvented this problem by embracing the flaw. Now nearly every brew on the menu is extolled for it's various fruity, floral, and effervescent overtones. Yuck.

 

[eelnoraa]

Everyone can fit into another's extremist definition. It is all fundamental believe difference. Everyone could have different opinion on certain things depending on their life experience. I think it is OK. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. A forum is where people express theirs. Forcing other to behave in certain way IS the real extremist. I don't think any of us is doing that, or have the power to do that.

 

[boulderjohn]

I've changed my whole attitude towards sidemount based on what you and Bob have said. I'd never tell you that, but there you are. So, I believe that you can change an extremists mind.

My initial post comment on chainging was too brief because I stupidly posted without that part and added it quickly in an edit. What I was really wondering about is what it takes for someone to step back and realize that he or she is an extremist. I know a wonderful married couple who would have seemed poor candidates for connubial bliss. He was a first class slob, and she was OCD. What happened was that each of them had a revelation about their conditions. He worked hard to become reasonably neat, and she has done what she can to curb her OCD problem. What helps is that they both laugh about it.

Similarly, I have recently read autobiogrpahical sketches from people who went from being pretty serious racists to being active opponents of racism. When they were racists, they would enver admit it. They always had a good, solid reason for the beliefs they held. In each case, though, they had something like a blinding light moment on the road to Damascus that made them realize, "Holy crap! I'm a flaming racist!"

I have talked mostly trivia. I am going to give a slightly less trivial example and then hint at why I am not going deeper into this.

I first started technical diving training in an environment that was very precise and, well, extreme. Every little detail had to be done a certain way. I later switched agencies, and my new instructor(s) did not have that attitude toward the smaller details. I eventually was working on becoming a TDI instructor, and I was conducting a training dive in which two TDI instructor trainers were pretending to be students and screwing up in every way they could so that I could deal with their errors. In one case, I corrected a mistake one of them was making, and he seemed really confused. It took several tries for me to get him to do it correctly, and I thought, "Man, he is really overdoing it."

When we got back on the boat, he asked me what was up with that skill. I told him what he was doing wrong, and he asked me why it was wrong. he always did it that way. Everyone he knew always did it that way. My only response, lame as it soundedd even to me, was that I had always been taught that I must always do it the other way. It had been thoroughly drilled into me, but I had no idea why. I tried it his way, and when I saw how much better it worked, I was converted. Someday I will run into my other instructor and ask him why it was so important that we do that skill the other way, because I really am curious. Maybe he will realize the extremity of that position as I did.

Once again, it was not a potentially fatal skill, but I have several "extremist" policies in mind that I believe are indeed potentially fatal. Why don't I call them out publicly? See bullet #3 in my opening post. The attacks will come hard, and I don't want to start a flame war. I hinted at one of them a few years ago in a ScubaBord post and got a private message threatening to take action against me for violating the PADI standard against disparaging another agency. Well, I'm not expecting that to happen, but it shows how serious some people can be.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Scuba to some, or maybe many on SB? is considered an "extreme" sport. Maybe not to a warm water vacation diver that just likes to blow bubbles looking at stuff on a shallow reef, but when you get into some of the far reaching specialty branches of diving like many on this board are, you are going to have strong personalities and opposing views. Many feel that their view and their way of doing things is what kept them alive, and so they take on this "do it my way or die" dramatic view of their diving world.
I've mostly seen this in the tech and cave world where there is a lot more at stake between gas mixtures, staged decompression, being miles back in a cave with no direct ascent, etc. where you can truelly get screwed up for life or die very easily if you don't know what you're doing.
For the recreational world not nearly as much. Yeah, there is some fun poked here and there at gear, agencies, split fins, poodle jackets, the vintage world, and weirdo's like me that just don't fit in anywhere, etc.
But for the most part I think it's just harmless fun.

 

[DaleC]

Interesting discussion.

I enjoy a good intellectual debate and, unlike some who see the back and forth of SB as annoying, I find it a good way to test my beliefs. If I can argue a point and it sounds good without much rebuttal then I'm probably on the right path. If someone is arguing back and their points are troubling me it suggests I need to look at my position more. The best one for me was a semantic argument over whether paying $5 for air saved me 100% over paying $10 for nitrox. That took about 3 pages of debate to work through.

Occasionally I get dragged into a mudfest, by my own mistake and make an argument personal. Usually, at some point, I have moment where I realize I'm posting hurtfully and try to disengage and get back to arguing ideas. This happened more in the past when it seemed the differences were more important but these days I see that regular members can hold different POV's and still be friends. Imagine trying to juggle a DIY, DIR, vintage equipment philosophy.

 

[Nemrod]

Scuba to some, or maybe many on SB? is considered an "extreme" sport.

Some of the most vehement arguments have been over defining SCUBA diving as a sport or a relaxing hobby.

Other hot button/polarizing topics:

1. AI vs spg
2. Split fins vs paddle fins
3. BP/wing vs everything else
4. black masks vs clear masks
5. DIR anything since they do it right
6. dive knives vs shears vs line cutters
7. long hose vs standard hose air sharing
8. Deep air
9. "My instructor said"--------
10. weight belt vs weight integration

And that is probably just scratching the surface.

N

 

[boulderjohn]

Some of the most vehement arguments have been over defining SCUBA diving as a sport or a relaxing hobby.

Other hot button/polarizing topics:

1. AI vs spg
2. Split fins vs paddle fins
3. BP/wing vs everything else
4. black masks vs clear masks
5. DIR anything since they do it right
6. dive knives vs shears vs line cutters
7. long hose vs standard hose air sharing
8. Deep air
9. "My instructor said"--------
10. weight belt vs weight integration

And that is probably just scratching the surface.

N

Anyone holding an extreme "my way or the highway" attitude toward any of those points would be examples of what I am talking about. Let's look at #7. There used to be a long hose enthusiast on ScubaBoard who used to beat everyone ever the head with "you're gonna die!" posts. On several occasions he said, in so many words, that all standard octos always drag in the silt and become nonfunctional, so that when they are needed, the OOA diver will always die. I was then using one of those conventional octos, one that had somehow never dragged in the silt and become nonfucntional, and what he wrote pissed me off so much with its absurdity that it took me a long time to convert to the long hose system for my recreational diving, even after seeing its advantages in my technical training.

 

[RJP]

Interesting discussion.

I enjoy a good intellectual debate and, unlike some who see the back and forth of SB as annoying, I find it a good way to test my beliefs.

I also struggle - as anyone who's read more than about four of my posts knows - with people who don't understand the difference between the intellectual notion of "making an argument" and the emotional notion of "having an argument." Perhaps it was too many logic and philosophy courses in high school and college.

Personally, I enjoy the rigorous application of logic involved in debate/argument. There's an almost mathematical purity to it when all sides are willing (and able) to make their case, point/counterpoint, etc. To a certain extent you need to be "an extremist" to be good at debating. Where the wheels typically come off in a debate is when someone goes ad hominem or ad lapidum, or a handful of other logical fallacies that become the equivalent of "Oh yeah? Well I'm rubber, you're glue..."

I also struggle with folks who can't abide good-natured split-fin, BP/W, or SpareAir extremism.

 

[Nemrod]

Anyone holding an extreme "my way or the highway" attitude toward any of those points would be examples of what I am talking about. Let's look at #7. There used to be a long hose enthusiast on ScubaBoard who used to beat everyone ever the head with "you're gonna die!" posts. On several occasions he said, in so many words, that all standard octos always drag in the silt and become nonfunctional, so that when they are needed, the OOA diver will always die. I was then using one of those conventional octos, one that had somehow never dragged in the silt and become nonfucntional, and what he wrote pissed me off so much with its absurdity that it took me a long time to convert to the long hose system for my recreational diving, even after seeing its advantages in my technical training.

I am pretty sure I remember that thread. It had a similar effect upon me. I have since converted and then converted back though I did keep one set of regs as long hose as I am no longer adverse to it. I have went and gone off the Minimalist SCUBA edge and anyway, 60/72 inches of hose is more than 36/40 inches and therefore has to weigh more in my suitcase .

Oh, I left out solo, pony bottles, spearfishing, Spare Air, Integrated Inflators, good grief and then one of my all time favorites, your gonna die if you use an Air Buddy.

N