Running with Scissors

[AndyNZ]

OK, I was wrong..... the PADI Cavern standards change wasn't last year, it was as far back as 2006.

Details are in the third quarter 2006 training bulletin, available on the PADI Pros website.

Some discussion on the changes here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/151431-padi-cavern-diver-course-changes.html

 

[Cave Bum]

OK, I was wrong..... the PADI Cavern standards change wasn't last year, it was as far back as 2006.

Details are in the third quarter 2006 training bulletin, available on the PADI Pros website.

Some discussion on the changes here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/151431-padi-cavern-diver-course-changes.html

Thanks, Andy,

No, I hadn't seen those changes... another PADI issue, they were mailing to my street address, which I don't get mail at, instead of my PO Box. I never got the quarterlies or the Manual-on-CD for 2006 or 2007.

Fortunately, I've been meeting all those standards including the air share in the overhead.

PADI still doesn't limit the training to groups of 4 as is common in cave diving and doesn't allow training in doubles or side mount which other agencies do. Still, any advance to bring our training in line with the rest of the industry is welcome!

Bruce

 

[AndyNZ]

PADI still doesn't limit the training to groups of 4 as is common in cave diving and doesn't allow training in doubles or side mount which other agencies do. Still, any advance to bring our training in line with the rest of the industry is welcome!

Yes it does. There was another standards change last year that allows students to dive in doubles. Penetration is limited to 1/6th gas supply. Check the training bulletins, or there is a thread somewhere in the I2I forum about it. I think it was Q3 last year, taking effect January 2009. It was the same TB as the change to the AOW course deep dive.

Sidemount may be a more grey area - personally, if indpendent doubles are allowed (I'd have to check the wording of the standard) then I'd see no problem with teaching it in sidemount provided the student divers are used to using sidemount and practice sidemount specific skills in OW, just as I would expect them to be able to valve drills if diving manifolded doubles.

They haven't changed the ratios for the overhead environment. Personally, I think this makes sense for two reasons. Firstly, they are being consistent with their other overhead envirnoment courses - wreck is limited to 2:1 in the overhead. Secondly, there are many PADI Cavern instructors who are only qualified to "Intro to Cave" level. These may not have the requisite skills to (a) wear full cave kit, and (b) deal with four students in an overhead environment.

To be honest, it really sounds like you take no interest in what PADI is doing - you can't blame them for not sending you TBs (they are online, check them) or your instructor manual. It's your professional obligation to stay up to date.

I also find it curious that you use an example of trying to find your certification card as an example of why you don't want to call PADI. There customer service may not be that great for divers, but you interact differently as an instructor - they are now your servant. They are there to assist you. Rather than ranting about them, take the time to (a) actually be up to date with standards before claiming that the standards aren't good enough, and (b) learn how to work with PADI by building a relationship with their educational consultants and your regional manager. You should know your regional manager on first name terms, you should know at least one educational consultant on first name terms. The more you are in their face, the more you will get from them.

I'm sorry if this is coming across somewhat harshly, but the tone of this thread has been a PADI bash from the start - their system is not perfect, it has drawbacks and at times it is just downright wrong. But at least if you are going to criticise it you should know what the standards actually are *AND* what the intent of each standard is. The fact that you have been teaching cavern courses oblivious of major standards changes suggests to me that you are not taking being a PADI instructor that seriously. Maybe once you've crossed over to another agency, you may wish to consider dropping your PADI membership? After all, why teach something that you do not beleive in?

 

[AndyNZ]

OK, I got my dates wrong again.... the change in the standard allowing use of doubles in Cavern classes was Q1 2009, to take effect no later than this month.

The new standard is "Divers may use a single tank configuration or a double tank configuration with dual manifold at the discretion of the instructor. Divers must adhere to the 1/6 rule for air management when using a double tank configuration."

This does limit the use of both independant doubles and sidemount. But seeing that one of the benefits of sidemount is the ability to traverse narrow passages, that's not really at odds with the intent of any cavern class.

There is, however, a growing number of sidemount distinctive specialties; and DSAT courses may now be conducted in sidemount. You could teach a sidemount specialty and apply for a waiver to cavern class standards to allow sutiably qualified students to conduct the class in sidemount. I would fully expect that waiver to be granted, provided that you did not intend to take students through restrictions too narrow for divers to pass side by side.

 

[DevonDiver]

I've got an instructor visiting my center at the moment, running a tech-wreck sidemount course. It looks great! Wish I was in on it, rather than sitting in the office doing admin nonsense this morning! ha ha

 

[Cave Bum]

OK, I got my dates wrong again.... the change in the standard allowing use of doubles in Cavern classes was Q1 2009, to take effect no later than this month.

The new standard is "Divers may use a single tank configuration or a double tank configuration with dual manifold at the discretion of the instructor. Divers must adhere to the 1/6 rule for air management when using a double tank configuration."

This does limit the use of both independant doubles and sidemount. But seeing that one of the benefits of sidemount is the ability to traverse narrow passages, that's not really at odds with the intent of any cavern class.

There is, however, a growing number of sidemount distinctive specialties; and DSAT courses may now be conducted in sidemount. You could teach a sidemount specialty and apply for a waiver to cavern class standards to allow sutiably qualified students to conduct the class in sidemount. I would fully expect that waiver to be granted, provided that you did not intend to take students through restrictions too narrow for divers to pass side by side.

I appreciate you comments. I haven't taught a cavern course in a year or so and usually check for updates and go over the standards prior to teaching the class. My comments were as of last time I checked and included PADI's ongoing issue with not being able to get my mailing address correct so I wasn't receiving the manual updates that I was suppose to receive. My experience with PADI hasn’t been very positive in relation to their customer service either as a diver or as an instructor. I’m trying to change that from the inside, I’d like to see us work as a team. I think it PADI has great training materials and a good, solid world wide reputation and those are things of value. There are some things I think could be better and I'm trying to be part of the solution.

The comments on cavern training were just intended to demonstrate the differences in philosophy and weren't meant as PADI bashing. I also believe and agree with PADI being recreational and putting their tech training over to DSAT.

What I'm trying to figure out in regard to self reliance is:

1. What to suggest to PADI
2. How to put it into a formal proposal to approach them with

I’ve gotten some very good advice and am currently trying to formalize that, put it into a document and test it in a class. As you will have noticed, I changed from thinking that self-reliance should go in Open Water to thinking it should go into Advanced and took to heart the comments that OW is already too task intensive.

Thanks for your advise.

 

[Kingpatzer]

There are some things I think could be better and I'm trying to be part of the solution.

As someone lower on the ladder than the instructor/cd level, how much input do PADI's professional members have in setting/changing standards? Or is it just something declared from on high?

 

[Scubadam]

I thik the "self reliant" part is already at least starting to mix into PADI's curriculum, I mean they do teach CESA, and other techniques for if you are alone under the water and something were to happen. But they are being realistic with their buddy system, you should always dive with a buddy, that does not go on to say divers always will dive with a buddy, but it is a system for diving.

 

[Cave Bum]

As someone lower on the ladder than the instructor/cd level, how much input do PADI's professional members have in setting/changing standards? Or is it just something declared from on high?

I'm not sure, that's what I'm about to find out. I'm hoping they are open to at least considering the opinions of the instructors out there. One of the main issues (I think) is "Is it defensible in court?" Unfortunately, in our society, especially here in the US, that is a very important requirement. I forgot to mention to AndyNZ that that is another thing that PADI does very well.

I think the "self reliant" part is already at least starting to mix into PADI's curriculum, I mean they do teach CESA…

Well, by ‘self-reliant’ what I was trying to stress was dealing with underwater problems underwater and problem avoidance. CESA and some other skills we teach are ‘running away’ from the problem, not dealing with it. But as has been well explained by others in this thread, teaching these skills in the basic open water course is appropriate. The course, they explain, is already very task intensive, already presents a lot to learn.

Because of the great input I’ve received here, I have revised my thinking and now believe that self-reliance and problem solving should be taught at the Advanced Open Water level. I’m working on writing up my proposal and I have an Advance Open Water class coming up that I’m going to try some of my ideas and see how the students feel they work.

 

[AndyNZ]

What I'm trying to figure out in regard to self reliance is:

1. What to suggest to PADI
2. How to put it into a formal proposal to approach them with

I’ve gotten some very good advice and am currently trying to formalize that, put it into a document and test it in a class. As you will have noticed, I changed from thinking that self-reliance should go in Open Water to thinking it should go into Advanced and took to heart the comments that OW is already too task intensive.

Thanks for your advise.

I'd suggest a slightly different approach - start with working out what you want to teach, and why.

Then take a good look at the existing courses where some emphasis on self-reliance could be appliciable, for example AOW and Rescue. See which standards you can use to incorporate what you want. If anything is particularly grey, just phone PADI and check.

Don't forget, you can add in things into any course - provided you don't withold certification for those skills. So if you are teaching a PPB adventure dive, tell your students that you'd like them to do some air sharing skills (whilst neutrally buoyant), and some mask remove and replace sklls (again, whilst neutral). You'll probably find that within the confines of AOW itself you can introduce a huge percentage of the concepts you want to cover. For example, Deep 1 - talk about the "need" for a drop tank.... you can teach gas management properly at this stage to eliminate the need for an emergency gas supply for anything other than catasptrophic equipment failure. But, if you have a catastrophic equipment failure - are you actually going to swim back to the up line and find the drop tank??? So why not carry it with you.

If this isn't enough for you, then think about writing your own distinctive specialty and submit it to PADI. This is what I did - my starting point was the SDI solo diver course outline, you'll find it on the web if you look. Solo is never going to work with PADI, so don't even go there. Even with SDI, the intent of the solo course is really to prepare for the unexpected rather than to plan and conduct solo dives.

Take a look at the skills in the SDI outline, what ones do you like and what ones don't you like. Add in the specifics that are the hallmark of a well written performance requirement - specifically how long, how much variation in depth, what maximum ascent rate.

Create a two page "summary outline" in the first instance, and send it off to PADI to get feedback. You will find they give some useful advice on the skills sequencing, number of dives and so on. If you get a postive indication, you then need to go and add the detail of the lecture material. You are looking to get the same level of detail as in a standardised outline. Present your credentials for being able to teach the content safely, formally submit it and in a few weeks you'll be teaching it.


Best of luck.