Running with Scissors

[Cave Bum]

AndyNZ,

Thanks for your input. I agree that 'problem avoidance' is better then ‘intervention’ any day of the week.

My flight instructor phrased it like this:

Using your excellent intellect to avoid situations that would require you excellent skill

I think that is part of what I’d like to teach in ‘self-reliance’. I had mentioned in a post above about what we used to call ‘hanger talk’ and what maybe we in diving should call ‘dive locker talk’. Sitting around with your dive buddies discussing the ‘what-ifs’.

Hey, if {this} happened, what would you do?

Visualization and conceptualization, both in a group and alone are powerful tools to both learning how to react correctly in an emergency and also to ‘seeing it coming’, to avoiding it to begin with. This was part of what I felt was missing, avoidance.

Bruce

 

[Cave Bum]

Yellowmask,

Again, thanks for coming in and commenting. As has been also mentioned by others, you seem to be very clear in your view of things.

In an aside, Yellowmask, you might enjoy reading "The Darkness Beckons" by Martyn Farr. Not that that particular type of diving might appeal to you, but it's an intriguing look at the history of specialty diving in your country, the UK, in particular sump diving. A fascinating read!

With a nod and thanks to Jacky Boy, your comments are also appreciated!

To All:

After seeing all the comments, and seeing the disembodied offshoots of this expressed succinctly (thanks in part to AndyNZ and Yellowmask for condensing the discussions in your last posts!) I think that the Open Water course may be too early to introduce these self-reliance concepts other then to comment on their importance.

AndyNZ has a specialty course that comes after Open Water. That’s probably a better time to teach this. As Andy has pointed out, PADI lets instructors ‘expand’ on the standard (it’s still my understanding that I can’t teach above the standard). My problem is that that leaves it open to the whims of the particular instructor.

As most of us are aware, some instructors and some shops, perhaps not the majority, but some, are just teaching the minimum on their quest for the (elusive) almighty dollar (Pound, Euro, Yen, Deutsche Mark, etc).

I’d like to see teaching these skills made mandatory at some point in the process. We have mandatory Deep Dive and mandatory Navigation in Advance Open Water. Almost all the students that come to me for AOW have dives below 100 feet (30 M) even though I can’t take them that deep in the course. IMHO, the self-reliance skills are more important then either of those other two.

Also IMHO, if self-reliance isn’t made into a permanent PADI specialty and made required for AOW, it won’t get taught.

I’m going to start roughing out an outline and contact PADI to see what the procedure for suggesting permanent changes to the standards intales. Again, I’m sure I’ll get shot down on this, but I am going to try!

Bruce

 

[Kingpatzer]

Bruce,

My contention with where this started is not that teaching problem avoidance is wrong per se, but that the impression that it should be done instead of buddy skills.

But to your larger point, it is also true that problem solving, identification, and avoidance are all something that come with experience. OW courses in general, and PADI OW courses in particular are neither long enough nor comprehensive enough to provide a context for the experience needed to be able to engage in that sort of thinking well.

In my view, it is much better to get the students to understand strict limits and specific problem solving techniques while stressing that while they are certified and can get a tank and gear rental to dive wherever they want, they are only really only capable to dive unsupervised within the limits of their experience and training, and in doing that they will gain the experience necessary to develop the sound judgment necessary to being a highly skilled diver.

Even where the class extended to something ludicrous such as 10 days, without taking those divers from the great lakes, mountain lakes, rivers, reefs, kelp forests, and recreational wrecks they would still not have the experiencse necessary to be able to anticipate every reasonable threat and to visualize and plan responses to those situations, and they certainly wouldn't have the time under water to learn some of the most important lessons about their own limitations. Heck, it took me 20 dives before I could see my tiniest bubbles, I was too busy running through the training drill to notice the environment!

Baring excessively long and in-depth courses, there have to be trade-offs. Effective problem solving skills require a lot of time to develop well, and they need constant re-enforcement and practice to remain sharp. A set of firm do's and don'ts take a few minutes to convey, and can be re-enforced through the class to the point that, if not internalized, can at least be recalled at some later date.

More effective than having extensive problem anticipation, identification and solving skills in an OW course, in my mind, would be having a program where every dive mastert and instructor went through their own thought process about planning dives and preparing for contingencies as part of any dive briefing. That sort of constant, continuous repetition would serve the same purpose, not require compromises in the current, already limited, curriculum, and would serve the dive professionals as well as the students in maintaining respect for the sport.

I'm of the view that a specialty course would suffer the same issues as an OW course. Instead of a reinforced way to dive, it's a point in time information dump.

Oh, and by the way:

it’s still my understanding that I can’t teach above the standard

Nothing you teach outside of the standard can be used in any way to evaluate the student's course performance. But there is nothing to prevent you from demonstrating other skills outside of those required, or detailing other dive information to the students -- provided the students have the time to perform required skills and that they are graded only on those skill AND that the students are not placed in any situation that would be inappropriate in light of the standards. (you won't be taking OW students on a night dive prior to certification, for example)

 

[AndyNZ]

I'm still a believer in that what and how the instructor teaches, is more important than who he teaches for

100% with you.

I've seen instructors from PADI, SDI, SSI and NAUI - none of whom I would let teach a family member to dive. But at the same time, I've seen very good instructors from each, who could easily teach a dive course from any set of agency standards that will produce a good diver.

I'm slightly sceptical that all facilities will provide extra time - or at least, whether you'd get paid for the extra time. I've been lucky in that I've worked for two facilities that did support their instructors properly, but I have seen many that don't. That's one of the drivers for starting our own business, we set the rules and maintain the standard we want a student diver to acheive.

I think that is part of what I’d like to teach in ‘self-reliance’. I had mentioned in a post above about what we used to call ‘hanger talk’ and what maybe we in diving should call ‘dive locker talk’. Sitting around with your dive buddies discussing the ‘what-ifs’.

I'm assuming that you are a PADI instructor? Apologies if not.

But why don't you teach this? If it's what you want to do, go for it. PADI will support you entirely in any elaboration of their course standards that are appropriate for your environment. If you have any doubt, phone them and ask - 99.99% of the time they will say it's fine.

I regularly talk about solo diving in the (now few) OW courses I teach. The most common buddy system dived here in NZ is the starfish system - underwater hunters get to the bottom and spread out, never to see the rest of the team on a dive. I have seen someone who bought a 7' primary hose for the sole purpose that it let them take their BCD off underwater to get further into a crack, with no mask on, desperately trying to get the largest lobster they can..... whilst their "buddy" was 15m away doing much the same. If a fresh OW diver goes out diving on certain charters here, they will see this. If I don't elaborate during the knowledge development portion of the course, they will wonder what is going on.

I also teach OOG has a "what if"... yes, the skill is introduced kneeling on the bottom with students facing each other. But once they've done this a few times, we start a discussion "how far away from your buddy should you be?". And then we head in to the deep end, and space a buddy pair 2m apart so they have to swim towards each other to secure a gas source. Then repeat it 4m apart, then 6m.... If you want to teach self-reliance in an OW course, this is a perfect opportunity to discuss redundant gas sources. I carry a 30 cu ft pony bottle on every OW course dive - I explain why, it's partly because I am in a situation where my primary concern is student safety. if something should happen to my gas supply, and I share air with a student - am I in control of the group, and able to respond? It gets students thinking.

Personaly, and I limit this specifically to the PADI system, I don't think an OW student/graduate is ready to go totally self-reliant. But you can teach in a way that gets them thinking about it and appreciate what the buddy system really is.

There is plenty that can be done within the confines of the PADI system (and I assume other agencies too), it's just up to the instructor to think about how to do it. If in doubt, call 1-800-PADI-HELP. I've had loads of conversations with educational consultants about the intent of standards, and how I can help a student acheive a particular end goal in a new way. They are always helpful, rarely say an absolute no and provide a useful sounding board to gauge how grey the area you are in is.

 

[Kingpatzer]

My flight instructor . . .

Comparing flight training to dive training is a bit off kilter in my mind. I don't know what the civilian standards for flight training are, but in the military an aweful lot more time is spent in the classroom, in simulators an in the air than for any OW class.

Time is the element that matters most here, and that means there have to be compromises to the course curriculum.

NOT btw, that that point invalidates the wisdom of what your instructor said. Rather it points to there being a reason to not take any analogy between flight training and dive training too far.

 

[Paladin]

Civilian flight training is not all that intensive. Light planes are really quite easy to fly. "Ground school" can be done as home study without even stepping foot onto an airport. You only need to have an instructor sign off on your log book to take the FAA written test. I studied the manual and took the test before going for my first lesson. I soloed a Cessna 150 after five hours of dual instruction and was cut loose for my cross-country flights after ten hours. I got my Private Pilot license after completing the mandatory 40 hours of combined dual/solo flight time. Now, with the new Sport Pilot License, that time is cut in half. You can get a license to fly small, two seat planes with 20 hours of instruction.

So, the analogy used to compare flight training and SCUBA training is not all that far off.

 

[Cave Bum]

Bruce,

My contention with where this started is not that teaching problem avoidance is wrong per se, but that the impression that it should be done instead of buddy skills.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I meant was that I felt PADI's teaching of the buddy system was incomplete. I felt that avoidance and problem solving should be stressed far more as part of the buddy system. The 'use intellect to avoid having to use your skills' thing! I also felt thinking through a problem was an important step. "I'm over-breathing, I feel panic, my instructor said that was CO2 build-up I should cease all motion".

But to your larger point, it is also true that problem solving, identification, and avoidance are all something that come with experience. OW courses in general, and PADI OW courses in particular are neither long enough nor comprehensive enough to provide a context for the experience needed to be able to engage in that sort of thinking well.

I now agree with that. However, experience has taught me that Problem Solving has to be learned, it isn't an inate human characteristic. In IMHO, to train the best generation of divers we can train, we need to teach them this skill.

I'm of the view that a specialty course would suffer the same issues as an OW course. Instead of a reinforced way to dive, it's a point in time information dump.

On this I disagree. Problem Solving is an alien concept. We need to introduce it somewhere. As I said above, it doesn't come naturally.

Oh, and by the way:

Nothing you teach outside of the standard can be used in any way to evaluate the student's course performance. But there is nothing to prevent you from demonstrating other skills outside of those required, or detailing other dive information to the students -- provided the students have the time to perform required skills and that they are graded only on those skill AND that the students are not placed in any situation that would be inappropriate in light of the standards. (you won't be taking OW students on a night dive prior to certification, for example)

I'm assuming that you are a PADI instructor? Apologies if not.

But why don't you teach this? If it's what you want to do, go for it. PADI will support you entirely in any elaboration of their course standards that are appropriate for your environment. If you have any doubt, phone them and ask - 99.99% of the time they will say it's fine.

To AndyNZ, Yes, PADI OWSI and in the process of crossing over to IANTD and NSS-CDS full cave instructor.

To both, I haven't found specifics in the standards that say 'don't teach {this} ...' but I have been told by other instructors teaching Cave Diving down here that PADI frowns in PADI instructors teaching the Cavern Course to NSS-CDS or IANTD standards (while being sure to include all PADI required items). For sure PADI standards prohibit me from doing an air share in the overhead while NSS-CDS and IANTD require it although I thoughtt there was a unified standard agreed to by all training agencies at a conference a few years ago. I get around this by doing that air share on the student's 'graduation dive' after they have already completed all of PADI's requirements and so then are a PADI certified Cavern Diver.

Personaly, and I limit this specifically to the PADI system, I don't think an OW student/graduate is ready to go totally self-reliant. But you can teach in a way that gets them thinking about it and appreciate what the buddy system really is.

Nod!

There is plenty that can be done within the confines of the PADI system (and I assume other agencies too), it's just up to the instructor to think about how to do it. If in doubt, call 1-800-PADI-HELP. I've had loads of conversations with educational consultants about the intent of standards, and how I can help a student acheive a particular end goal in a new way. They are always helpful, rarely say an absolute no and provide a useful sounding board to gauge how grey the area you are in is.

This is fodder for a whole different thread, but I have NO! faith in calling PADI and talking to a 20-something non-diver who gives me her opinion, not PADI's.

[Rant] Since this is off topic I'll make it as short as I can. Was certified in 1969. Didn't dive again until 1999. Got re-certified with PADI at Ginnie Spings in Florida (know world wide to Cave Divers and prominent in the book "The Last Dive"). Didn't get a card. Contacted PADI and explained.

First dork email: "We don't have an instuctor on file with the name 'Ginnie Springs', would you please send us her PADI number".

Me: "No, Ginnie Spings is a place not a person. It's internationally known. The instructor didn't have a PIC and was going to fill it out later. Never mind I have signed dives in my log book, can I copy and send them?"

Email from her (Officious) supervisor: "If you'll send us copies of you temp card, you PIC, any records of the dives you made and a picture we'll decide if you rate a certification card".

My email to NAUI and SSI (copied to PADI): "I've copied here all corrispondence with PADI. What do I need to do to get a card from you guys?"

Email from the (Officious) supervisor's boss: "Please give us another chance. It was an honest mistake".

I went though each item with her(on the phone) showing it was indeed not an honest mistake. Her excuse was that PADI had non-dives hired because they had disablities that wouldn't let them dive. (Mental incapacity????)

They are welcome to employ anyone they want to, just don't let it impact service... In this case it did!

From now on VP level or better! The people that answer the phone at PADI are idiots![/Rant]

Comparing flight training to dive training is a bit off kilter in my mind. I don't know what the civilian standards for flight training are, but in the military an aweful lot more time is spent in the classroom, in simulators an in the air than for any OW class.

My 'ground school' was chatting with my instructor in a Cessna 150 while bouncing around the skys over Colorado I got 94% on my written if I remenber correctly...

 

[Thalassamania]

Chuck Yeager said in his autobiography "the way to become a great pilot is to fly. You don't develope those skills sitting in the hanger reading books" (or something close to that...).

The problem with using General Yeager as an examplar is that while I agree with that particular quote, he was guilty of just the sort of thing that gets solo divers killed, he was willing to endanger the entire program by piloting the X-1 with a broken rib, when he should have asked his backup to take the flight.

 

[Cave Bum]

The problem with using General Yeager as an examplar is that while I agree with that particular quote, he was guilty of just the sort of thing that gets solo divers killed, he was willing to endanger the entire program by piloting the X-1 with a broken rib, when he should have asked his backup to take the flight.

I don't disagree with your evaluation of him as a person. If you haven't read the recent exploits on the web you should (married a (maybe) golddigger, cut his kids out of the will, when asked what he saw in new wife his answer was 'Oh, just ho*n*y, I guess, any more questions?" Well, if I make it to my 70's maybe I'll be as lucky...

The quote stands! You learn by doing!

he was willing to endanger the entire program by piloting the X-1 with a broken rib, when he should have asked his backup to take the flight.

And do you know who that back up pilot was? Bob Hoover, one of the greatest pilots there has ever been! And another 'independent thinker'. Several years ago two fans, who also happened to be employees of the FAA, approached him at an air show. "Mr. Hoover" they said, " We're from the FAA, we'd like to talk to you". He sent them packing, they went back to the FAA and, believe it or not, had his medical pulled saying he had 'mental' problems. It took him almost two years before he was legal to fly again.

Yes, all of us 'anti-social, miscreants' should be delegated to the back of the 'solo forum'...

 

[AndyNZ]

To both, I haven't found specifics in the standards that say 'don't teach {this} ...' but I have been told by other instructors teaching Cave Diving down here that PADI frowns in PADI instructors teaching the Cavern Course to NSS-CDS or IANTD standards (while being sure to include all PADI required items). For sure PADI standards prohibit me from doing an air share in the overhead while NSS-CDS and IANTD require it although I thoughtt there was a unified standard agreed to by all training agencies at a conference a few years ago. I get around this by doing that air share on the student's 'graduation dive' after they have already completed all of PADI's requirements and so then are a PADI certified Cavern Diver.

I think PADI have changed the standards on the Cavern course, air sharing is now required in the overhead environment. I could be wrong, but I thought I read that in a TB some time last year.

If you are teaching an NSS-CDS or an IANTD course but issuing a a PADI certification, then that certainly wouldn't be well received. The issue of dual certification is very grey - your approach is pragmatic. Teach a PADI course in four dives, then tag on an extra couple of dives at the end to "upgrade" to which ever other certification you wish to issue. Provided the other agency allows this, it shouldn't cause you any problems.

If you are talking to other instructors, it's a game of chinese whispers. Get the word from PADI, not from someone else's interpretation of PADI. Or make the decision yourself, and be able to justify what you are doing.

This is fodder for a whole different thread, but I have NO! faith in calling PADI and talking to a 20-something non-diver who gives me her opinion, not PADI's.

You need to speak to one of the educational consultants, they are all PADI CDs. We only have half a dozen or so in Asia Pacific, so they're all named on the website. Just checked for PADI Americas... there must be a lot more, as only the training & quality director is named. But it does say "For ALL Training and Education as well as standards related questions contact: 2540". So you can just bypass the receptionist and go straight to the ECs.

Once you've talked to one, get their direct dial number. Build a relationship with them. As they get to know you, they'll provide a correspondingly more detailed response to your questions.