Running with Scissors

[gbray]

Here is my opinion. After about 55 dives I have come to realize 90%of the time we are solo diving even with a buddy.Most new divers don't have the buoyancy control to be of much assistance in an emergency and when they do they are more interested in other things and are inattentive. Most of my diving is in low vis and unless my buddy is shoulder to shoulder with me the odds of him being there at the critical moment are slim.

I dive the local quarry almost every weekend and have a couple regular buddies and a lot of new buddies because the quarry does not allow solo diving. Recently I was diving with a new buddy ( a man and his daughter- 3 does not make a good buddy team) when at about 40ft my dump valve came off in my hand. I signaled to my buddy, showed him the problem and gave the thumbs up sign. He signaled ok turned around and swam off. fortunately this was not a dire emergency but he had no way of knowing if I would panic, could maintain once at the surface or any one of many problems that could have resulted by being left alone. I swam to the wall ascended and hung on to the rocks while I repaired the valve. I have a few other stories but the point is we need to first be taught Proper buddy skills while at the same time be taught some sort of self rescue skills . I am all about solo skills at this point in my diving career but believe a good buddy is invaluable. Never Ever depend on someone else to rescue you in an emergency. Be as self suffecient as you possibly can and always dive with someone else in the area.

 

[Cave Bum]

I think one of the things you would need to stress would be independent thinking. All too often I see inexperienced or less capable divers follow a group or buddy in to situations they are not ready for.

...but you have to be realistic and not jump in to situations beyond your skill level, baby steps are required.

I totally agree. I think I would extend that to include dive site owners and dive boat owners as well. One of my pet peeves is a very popular local site that advertises it cavern as being 'safe for open water divers". I remind my students that this dive venue is not a certifying agency and does not have the authority to excuse divers from the limits of their certification.

I get deeply upset when I see a 20 something OW instructor who is probably not cave certified themselves leading a string of eight newly minted OW divers through the cavern with:

• Groups more then 3, 4 divers should split into groups of 2
• With the instructor having the only light (no 2 lights apiece)
• No reel run to main line
• No reel run when off of main line
• More then 130/200 feet from the surface
• Out of sight of the exit

Divers need to think for themselves and say "Am I ready for this"?

 

[Peter Guy]

Cave Bum -- I'm still trying to figure out your issue -- is it that you believe diving as a team (i.e., with a buddy, not just same time/same ocean but, in fact, a buddy) isn't the way one should dive OR is it that at least one agency's instructors, PADI, generally does a poor job of teaching students how to be a teammate (buddy)?

Me, all things being equal, I'd much prefer to dive with a buddy than by myself -- I like having that extra brain, those extra eyes, etc. BUT, that takes a buddy, not just someone else in the water.

 

[Cave Bum]

Cave Bum -- I'm still trying to figure out your issue -- is it that you believe diving as a team (i.e., with a buddy, not just same time/same ocean but, in fact, a buddy) isn't the way one should dive OR is it that at least one agency's instructors, PADI, generally does a poor job of teaching students how to be a teammate (buddy)?

The latter. I think we need to reprioritize the steps we teach for dealing with an emergency, add some self-reliance steps earlier in the process and deemphasize the running to a buddy or popping to the surface except as a last resort.

A buddy is a fine thing, but shouldn't be relied on as being responsible for your safety. You are ultimately responsible for that!

Although I've singled out PADI in this thread, I believe throughout the industry we should move in this direction. Some (most) already do a much better job then PADI simply because they don't poo-poo the idea of solo diving. There is an open and honest discussion of it.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I was perhaps a bit spoiled as I got certified in a semester long college course where the syllabus was expanded well beyond the PADI minimum - even back then when PADI OW covered a lot more.

But one of the major issues now is that PADI, SSI, etc are churning out divers who will, by design, be qualified to dive with a DM, rather than dive independently. That was not the case 20 years ago and it does reflect a change in mindset at both the industry and diver levels.

I agree with Cave bum that it makes little sense to promote diving with a buddy when that buddy is likely to be ill trained and ill prepared to assist - a distinctly different situation from a technical diving team where each member is fully capable of independent action, and as such is an asset to the team rather than a liability.

The SDI Solo Diving course is promoted not as a course intended to train divers to be solo (although many divers use it that way) but rather to increase the diver's ability to independently deal with potential emergencies that may arise when separated. This is addressed by teaching redundant configuration, dive planning and procedures that will allow the diver to avoid or handle emergencies in much the same manner as is taught in a technical diving class.

In that regard, it undoes the damage that has been done to basic OW certs in the 20-25 years since the industry as a whole took a hard left turn in the direction of the dive travel industry and started pumping out DM dependent divers rather than training competent divers who could plan and conduct a dive without the assistance of a DM and with a fair degree of self reliance.

What PADI and other agencies should be saying is the reality of the situtaion - that absent a lot more instruction and time in the water, a modern OW and even an AOW course prepares you to dive with a DM, and diving with an equally inexperienced buddy adds basically nothing to your odds of safely finishing the dive. They need to shift from "always dive with a buddy" to "always dive with a DM", at least until the student completes the levle fo training and experience needed to be more independent under water.

 

[D_B]

This thread isn't about teaching solo diving to new divers. It's about PADI's using it’s position on SOLO diving to say that a buddy is a be-all and end-all solution to any diving problem.

It’s not!

We should be teaching self-reliance and situational awareness as the prime safety procedure. We should be emphasizing that the diver should be analyzing and fixing underwater problems underwater themselves not running to a buddy or popping to the surface.

Running away is not problem solving!

The answer to an emergency isn’t:

When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

My buddy is responsible for my safety, running away, popping to the surface ..... does PADI really teach that ?

 

[DevonDiver]

I think that PADI is absolutely right to discourage solo diving.

I also think it is absolutely right that other agencies offer solo diving training.

Why the apparant hypocritism you may ask.....

Because the PADI system is very much orientated on providing classes that are both time and cost efficient for its students.

As many people will note, it provides a very basic 'bare-bones' system of education that is geared towards introducing people to the underwater world quickly...and with just sufficient skills and education to operate safely and effectively underwater.

The PADI entry-level training...and subsequent modular course program, is not suited to creating 'super-divers' at an early stage.

To balance this.... PADI have introduced a system of limitations and safeguards. They encourage conservative diving. They don't do deco diving. They preach 'training environment specifity', They preach the buddy system.

It may be a 'no-frills' system of education, but that is balanced against the issue that they do not encourage/support divers from exceeding the limitations of their training. Statistically, they ensure that the divers fall within safe parameters (statistical probablilities) given their training and experience...

It could be fair (from some perspectives) to criticise PADI for having too rudimentary dive skill progression in its courses...... but, with that in mind, you cannot also criticise them for setting more conservative limitations on its students.

The obvious answer to this is that PADI is selling its students short. However, we have to remember that PADI have a modular system....

A PADI Open Water course may not compare to a (for instance) Fundies course....

...but (with the right instructor, and that's another debatable issue)...a PADI OW+AOW+RESCUE course can be comparable.

The two may also be comparable in terms of cost!

PADI don't have a 's-o-l-o' course (at least until tech level self-sufficency is taught), but within the PADI system...the existance of a buddy (and proper buddy skills) is a core component in the balance between safety and training.

Of course, there is no reason why PADI divers cannot look outside of that system if they need to fulfill a particular training requirement. PADI do not discourage this....

Even on the standard policy of 'Safe Diving Practices', PADI state that specialist training should be sought before participation in specialist diving activities. They never say it has to be a PADI course...

PADI discourage s-o-l-o diving within the PADI system...for PADI trained divers. That's all.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

SEI does not promote solo diving. And in fact recommends against it. But instructors are free to discuss it. I do so with my students because in the real world they are gonna see it. I cover what is required to do so safely and then go into why they are in no way ready for it. But having said that we do teach many rescue skills in OW class as well as conduct drills requiring a higher degree of self reliance and self rescue.

Mask clearing is not that difficult a skill. But throw in doing after ditching all your gear and leaving it on the bottom, surfacing, and within 30 seconds diving back down and putting everything back on. Or dropping into the pool with everything in your lap and again putting it all back on. Another drill early on is reg retrieval. Now we do all skills horizontal from day one on scuba and this m,akes it a bit easier but I make sure they know that if they cannot find it on the first try that they have an octo that they know is right there. They do not have to keep sweeping, grab the buddy's or mine, or bolt. You grab your own, then locate the primary, then switch. They need to think about getting themselves out of trouble.

Another issue is even though buddy diving is taught it really is not taught effectively or insisted on. If an instructor talks buddy diving in every class session and then does not pair up students in the pool and insist they stay in proper position then it is not effective. Or when doing checkouts puts everyone in single file for the tours/swims. This is just plain stupid. It does nothing to increase buddy skills or awareness. In fact it contradicts it.

ANother line item that I do in everyone of my classes is hand out the who is responsible essay I wrote and is in the new divers forum. Not emphasizing personal responsibility and self reliance and self rescue is in my opinion responsible for a number of deaths. Several this year alone. Had these divers been taught that they cannot rely on someone 100% of the time and need to take care of themselves they may be alive. Had they been taught that sometimes the most important self rescue tool is to not do a dive beyond your level of skills and training they would not be dead. Had they been taught that a buddy must be a proper buddy or they are in effect diving alone and if not fully confident in their ability to save themself they may die, they would still be alive. Training divers to follow DM's/Guides/Instructors blindly and without question is training people to die and should be looked on a morally as well as ethically and perhaps criminally wrong. If you are going to advocate the buddy system teach it properly or teach divers that when they go in the water they are indeed alone. That guy swimming beside/ in front/ or behind them is likely gonna be nothing more than something else to look at as they struggle for life. Some say you can;t teach the buddy system in 3 days effectively. You're dam right you can't so why are you doing it. Teaching divers to dive as a team takes more than couple hours in the pool and 4 checkouts where chances are they will not be in proper position anyway.

I have 16 hours in the pool with students. It realisitically takes me all of about 2 to demo all the skills. If they get it right off the bat the students can demo em back in about the same actual time or a little longer. So what are we doing the rest of the time? Repeating those skills! In different situations under different task loads. And we are working on diving as buddies. They are required to be within arms reach at all times or closer (elbow to elbow) with no more than a head turn to the side to locate each other. I also have them dropping the reg or removing the mask, and with the buddy observing, recovering or replacing them while maintaining position. They are not to ask the buddy for assistance and the buddy does not offer it unless asked. If divers are going to dive as buddies then they need to be shown and drilled on proper buddy procedures or just tell them it's every man for him/herself.

 

[tstormdiver]

As I am progressing into & through technical diving (including cave), my instructor basically states this,.. "I do not advocate or encourage solo diving, but as a technical diver you should be able to handle any situation that may arise, where you may be forced to be a solo diver" (bad buddy, buddy seperation, incapacitated buddy....).- The "be prepared for any situation" motto. Just this spring when I went to Malaysia, I was basically on my own; part of the group, but no one's buddy,.... the odd man out. There was an even number of us on the boat, but one family of 3 absolutely refused to recognize me as a buddy or that I was really even there. They basically had the attitude of my wife/ husband/ daughter/ father is my buddy & no one else. I was informed of this from the very beginning. Not diving really wasn't an option (it is,... but I had paid good money to see what I saw), so I looked at every dive as a solo dive. I would take note of the environment, dove well within my limits & went throuigh the list of "what if's" that I could encounter out there. I hung close to the group (as there were others who would have been glad to offer assistance, if needed, but did not want another person as a buddy). In the end, I'm glad I wasn't buddied up with this family, as they proved to be very poor divers (reef care, buoyancy control, situational awareness), as they only vacation dive 1-2 times a year. Should I be beaten with a wet noodle for solo diving? I guess that would be in the eye of the beholder. Should newly minted divers be taught to be more self- suffiecent? Yes, I agree with that part, should they be encouraged to solo dive? No, I don't agree. 99.9% are not experienced enough to handle the "what if's" if they should occur. Knowledge & application can be 2 entirely different things. Maybe a bit off topic, but on the fringes of it, non the less.

 

[Cave Bum]

My buddy is responsible for my safety, running away, popping to the surface ..... does PADI really teach that ?

Yes! By teaching only share air, buddy breathing (optional) and CESA instead of including self-reliance, independence and problem solving we are saying to students “this is the way to handle a problem”.