Request for comments on article - mixed OC / CCR teams

[rddvet]

your unlikely to die by bailing out unless you've screwed up the gas plan, more chance the other way around

How many people have actually died bailing?

I know a couple divers who bailed out but it was relatively late and they toxed within a few moments of bailing.
I know a few who bailed out not realizing that they were having a medical issue and died.

Don't know anyone who bailed and drowned due to lack of volume or inappropriate BOs. The Eagle's nest double fatality a few years ago had so much else going wrong after one of them ditched his JJ, its not possible to attribute that OOA to bailing

Everyone else died on the loop. Staying on the loop is not the savior you were taught it is.

I don’t disagree bailing out is the best option and I was taught that. I was also taught how to problem solve and determine if going back to the loop is safe. I’m not telling other people to not bail out or bailing out is the wrong choice. It’s the best choice. But it’s not the only choice. It’s just a difference on how people are taught, as highlighted by the response of the person I was responding to.

 

[rjack321]

Wow, that's pretty intense. What would cause them to tox after BO? Something relating to hypercapnia?

O2 radicals in your blood don't drop immediately just because you aren't at ppO2 3.0+ this exact second. It takes time on a lower ppO2 gas for your CNS system to start to recover. The specific fatality I am thinking of was in 2006 and there were 2 old current limited cells, he did eventually BO. Toxed within a few seconds after and was rescued by his students (it was a MOD2 or 3 course). Died a day later in the hospital of his injuries.

 

[flymolo]

O2 radicals in your blood don't drop immediately just because you aren't at ppO2 3.0+ this exact second. It takes time on a lower ppO2 gas for your CNS system to start to recover. The specific fatality I am thinking of was in 2006 and there were 2 old current limited cells, he did eventually BO. Toxed within a few seconds after and was rescued by his students (it was a MOD2 or 3 course). Died a day later in the hospital of his injuries.

oh, yeah that makes perfect sense.

 

[rjack321]

I don’t disagree bailing out is the best option and I was taught that. I was also taught how to problem solve and determine if going back to the loop is safe. I’m not telling other people to not bail out or bailing out is the wrong choice. It’s the best choice. But it’s not the only choice. It’s just a difference on how people are taught, as highlighted by the response of the person I was responding to.

Oh well
Instructors teaching SCR at anything less than the MOD3 level are not doing their students any favors. You are not getting a better course by having SCR discussed in there, you are getting a bigger decision tree to kill yourself with. Just look at Stuart's flooded revo, that was a tiny head tlit away from a disasterous lung injury.

Recent CCR student (MOD1) level died in Canada last weekend. I'll wait for the coroner's report (which is actually being done with help from CCR savy people) but so far looks like he was diving SCR and went hypoxic.

 

[lermontov]

I don’t disagree bailing out is the best option and I was taught that. I was also taught how to problem solve and determine if going back to the loop is safe. I’m not telling other people to not bail out or bailing out is the wrong choice. It’s the best choice. But it’s not the only choice. It’s just a difference on how people are taught, as highlighted by the response of the person I was responding to.

I hear you, I have been taught 2 different ways but i think its a decision (staying on loop) that moves the risk factor higher so why would you? wouldn't it be better to eliminate the possibility of getting it wrong. Im just wondering how much of the 'stay on the loop and sort it out" has an erroneous base of 'im an awesome tech diver -ive got this" mentality. In our current climate of work safe requirements the number one mantra is eliminate hazards where possible.

Everyone has a threshold of stress and an ability to manage problems but when i read of diver incidents and in particular ccr ones i see a consistent pattern of small issues cascading to larger ones, for me getting back on OC seems ridiculously simple and psychologically less stressful thus giving your more 'bandwidth' to resolve the issue

 

[rjack321]

I hear you, I have been taught 2 different ways but i think its a decision (staying on loop) that moves the risk factor higher so why would you? wouldn't it be better to eliminate the possibility of getting it wrong. Im just wondering how much of the 'stay on the loop and sort it out" has an erroneous base of 'im an awesome tech diver -ive got this" mentality. In our current climate of work safe requirements the number one mantra is eliminate hazards where possible.

Everyone has a threshold of stress and an ability to manage problems but when i read of diver incidents and in particular ccr ones i see a consistent pattern of small issues cascading to larger ones, for me getting back on OC seems ridiculously simple and psychologically less stressful thus giving your more 'bandwidth' to resolve the issue

Said it much better than I could. The consequences of "prematurely" or "unnecessarily" bailing out are very low. The consequences for not bailing soon enough or going back to a compromised loop that you incorrectly decided was breathable or manageable are severe.

 

[rddvet]

Oh well
Instructors teaching SCR at anything less than the MOD3 level are not doing their students any favors. You are not getting a better course by having SCR discussed in there, you are getting a bigger decision tree to kill yourself with. Just look at Stuart's flooded revo, that was a tiny head tlit away from a disasterous lung injury.

Recent CCR student (MOD1) level died in Canada last weekend. I'll wait for the coroner's report (which is actually being done with help from CCR savy people) but so far looks like he was diving SCR and went hypoxic.

that surprises me that you think scr should be pushed off that far out. We agree on most things, but this is one of those things we look at a little differently. You also have more ccr experience than me so I do take your opinion seriously and definitely don’t discount it. I full agree bailing out is almost always the best choice. The scenarios where I would go back onto the loop are very few, and I won’t start the floodgates of discussing them here. In most scenarios I would bail out at the first thoughts of a problem(and have) and would stay bailed out.

I Im just wondering how much of the 'stay on the loop and sort it out" has an erroneous base of 'im an awesome tech diver -ive got this" mentality. In our current climate of work safe requirements the number one mantra is eliminate hazards where possible.

in my case that mentality of being awesome isn’t a factor. I’m actually very conservative in most aspects of my diving and don’t carry an ego on the dive. I’m also a new enough ccr diver to know my limits. My conservatism in diving is based on the fact that I don’t want my wife and my employees picking up the pieces if I kack myself on a dive. As stated above, the scenarios where I wouldn’t bail out or would go back on the loop are very small.
I generally shut up about this topic because when I have brought it up it didn’t go well. And I also don’t want to be seen as telling a new ow ccr divers not to immediately bail out. I only responded on this thread since the topic of how many people are taught that was brought up. I would say the majority of ccr divers I know (all of which are cave divers) had discussions of scenarios where they would choose to bail out, problem solve, and then get back on the loop at some point in their training.

 

[Scuba Client]

From what I've read on this forum in comparison to other international forums, the explanations are oblique. There seems to be a compendium of mishmash information which seems irrelevant.

 

[rddvet]

From what I've read on this forum in comparison to other international forums, the explanations are oblique. There seems to be a compendium of mishmash information which seems irrelevant.

Says the guy who can't seem to write a post that isn't ridiculously obtuse and impossible to follow.

 

[Wibble]

I hear you, I have been taught 2 different ways but i think its a decision (staying on loop) that moves the risk factor higher so why would you? wouldn't it be better to eliminate the possibility of getting it wrong. Im just wondering how much of the 'stay on the loop and sort it out" has an erroneous base of 'im an awesome tech diver -ive got this" mentality. In our current climate of work safe requirements the number one mantra is eliminate hazards where possible.

Everyone has a threshold of stress and an ability to manage problems but when i read of diver incidents and in particular ccr ones i see a consistent pattern of small issues cascading to larger ones, for me getting back on OC seems ridiculously simple and psychologically less stressful thus giving your more 'bandwidth' to resolve the issue

Read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a hypothetical cognitive bias stating that people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.