Reports of Monterey fatality

[raftingtigger]

Since it apparently happened during a class (something I have NOT verified) then the certifying organization generally requires a report from the instructor. I know when I was a PADI professional this was true for PADI. Since I believe this shop is no longer PADI I'm assuming (again no first hand knowledge) that is still the case. Then the certifying organization will conduct an in-house investigation.

Please do not ask me for the shop or agency info. I THINK I know, but that is not good enough, nor has the diver's name been released publicly.

 

[wnissen]

Does anyone know if there is an investigation when something like this happens? And who I would contact to pass along info?

I didn't see any law enforcement around taking statements at all, not to say there weren't any. One gentleman who I believe was representing the shop was taking down names and numbers of participants and observers, as well as checking to make sure the deceased's equipment had been recovered. If you think someone has important info, I could try to put you in touch with one of the people who participated in the rescue, whose number was collected.

 

[raftingtigger]

tigerlily, or you can PM me and I will give you contact info with the shop owner (if you have info for them).

 

[Steve_C]

Was on a trip to CA and arranged for a private DM for some shore dives. Went to Lajolla Shores. He, who was also a Navy rescue diver, said no way. We were standing there with some other instructors and DMs who had bailed on the dive when up comes a large (like 20 students) class. They lined up and charged in at what looked like a lull. A very large swell came up and buried them all. About half made it out to the DMs. Several of the rest had to be helped out of the water some up to 30 yds down the beach. Supervision by instructor. Total joke.

 

[Scuba Lawyer]

Was on a trip to CA and arranged for a private DM for some shore dives. Went to Lajolla Shores. He, who was also a Navy rescue diver, said no way. We were standing there with some other instructors and DMs who had bailed on the dive when up comes a large (like 20 students) class. They lined up and charged in at what looked like a lull. A very large swell came up and buried them all. About half made it out to the DMs. Several of the rest had to be helped out of the water some up to 30 yds down the beach. Supervision by instructor. Total joke.

Sounds typical. Here in So. Cal. (at least in the olden days) we were taught how to read the ocean and spend up to 1/2 hour (or more) observing it before attempting a beach entry if there was any wave action at all. We were taught to determine the prevailing swell direction, time the wave sets, time the lulls between sets, look for undertow in a shore break, identify any rip currents and determine ahead of time what direction to swim to exit them if caught up in one, determine wave height (trough to crest), wave length, and wave amplitude. We were taught to determine wind speed and direction and tidal speed and direction, and estimate those effects on wave action. We were taught to look for surface indicators of sub-surface rocks, sandbars or eddies (indicating deep holes in the sand bottom), etc... I haven't taught a dive class in 34 years so I have no idea what is taught to basic scuba students today. Back in the late 60's, 70's and at least into the 80's, and at least here in Southern California, basic scuba classes that I saw tried to teach watermanship skills so that when you got your first C-Card you could jump in and dive without handholding. Moreover, you had the knowledge on how to evaluate a beach dive site for potential water hazards all by yourself. End of rant. My 2psi.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sounds typical. Here in So. Cal. (at least in the olden days) we were taught how to read the ocean and spend up to 1/2 hour (or more) observing it before attempting a beach entry if there was any wave action at all. We were taught to determine the prevailing swell direction, time the wave sets, time the lulls between sets, look for undertow in a shore break, identify any rip currents and determine ahead of time what direction to swim to exit them if caught up in one, determine wave height (trough to crest), wave length, and wave amplitude. We were taught to determine wind speed and direction and tidal speed and direction, and estimate those effects on wave action. We were taught to look for surface indicators of sub-surface rocks, sandbars or eddies (indicating deep holes in the sand bottom), etc... I haven't taught a dive class in 34 years so I have no idea what is taught to basic scuba students today. Back in the late 60's, 70's and at least into the 80's, and at least here in Southern California, basic scuba classes that I saw tried to teach watermanship skills so that when you got your first C-Card you could jump in and dive without handholding. Moreover, you had the knowledge on how to evaluate a beach dive site for potential water hazards all by yourself. End of rant. My 2psi.

Passing along all that info and making sure the students absorb it takes time, and time is money.
Nowdays it’s all about the money.

 

[dmaziuk]

Those beer pitchers get heavy. . .

E B,C ,ME 9 Water Swimming laps, freestyle, moderate (e.g., 50 yards in 70 seconds)
E B,C ,ME 8 Water Swimming, crawl, slow (50 yards per minute) somewhat light intensity

So, 50 yards in 70 seconds is moderate at 9 METs, while 50 yards in 60 seconds is light and slow at 8 METs? Sounds like it's them crack pipes that's heavy.

 

[lexvil]

I see, to often, divers who have never had to deal with the ocean get tossed and rolled but those that don’t quit are better divers for west coast shore diving, my opinion far to many are getting certified in lakes and my opinion no one should get any advanced cert in that environment, Great Lakes being an exception since those are self contained inland oceans. Last week by watching the conditions I stayed home, sometimes that’s the best dive, the one you didn’t take.

 

[Jcp2]

Clearly, that table is incorrect. For a better idea, check out the bottom right table.

[Figure, Stress testing ECG and Charts. Contributed by Viliane Vilcant] - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

This is the test that PADI is referring to. It seems like they are referring to completion of level 4 (12 minutes) to be adequate for diving. There's a VO2max conversion formula based on time and METS on this particular test. Using this formula, a successful completion of 12 minutes (all of level 4 at 13 METS) predicts a VO2max of between 42-43.

Athletically speaking, this would be a fair value for a male 13-19, good for 20-29, good for 30-39, good for 40-49, excellent for 50-59, and excellent for 60+. This would be superior (beyond excellent) for all female age groups. Not a lot of people would qualify for diving under PADI guidelines if they had to be evaluated seriously by a physician according to these stated standards.

Most cardiac protocols are happy with 6-9 minutes (level 2-3), and the medical literature has 10 METS (level 3) as a breakpoint for lower cardiac risk compared to general population. Using the same VO2max formula yields a VO2max of around 30 to predict completion of level 3 (9 minutes).

Athletically speaking, this would be a very poor value for a male 13-19, very poor for 20-29, very poor for 30-39, very poor for 40-49, poor for 50-59, and fair for 60+. For females, this would be poor for 13-19, fair for 20-29, fair for 30-39, good for 40-49, good for 50-59, and good for 60+. But this is a medical standard used to predict cardiac risk for normal daily activities, not scuba diving.

I know what my VO2max is roughly via other methods, so I'm going to give this a try at the treadmill sometime soon. I predict that I will be able to make at least 12 minutes, but not much more before exhaustion.

 

[rjack321]

Since it apparently happened during a class (something I have NOT verified) then the certifying organization generally requires a report from the instructor. I know when I was a PADI professional this was true for PADI. Since I believe this shop is no longer PADI I'm assuming (again no first hand knowledge) that is still the case. Then the certifying organization will conduct an in-house investigation.

Not really

Those kinds of incident reports are just witness statements. They are used to limit the agency liability and throw the instructor under the bus in subsequent litigation. Which is why the agency demands them of instructors involved in an incident - not because they are trying to help everyone do better. Student instructor ratios will remain too high, instructors will remain under shop pressure to go out even when conditions are poor, the time spent learning about surf entries will remain a 45 second "walk backwards" discussion, etc.