Removing items from the USS Oriskany (interesting dilemma)

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Don Janni:
Know what PerroneFord, I tried to give you the best reply to your questions that I could and to your "REEEAALLLLY" reply, all i have to say is that's about what I would have expected from you.:shakehead


The funny thing was that I was actually with you RIGHT to that point where you said you don't participte in witch hunts.

I don't know this Capt from Adam. Honestly could care less. If he's found to be a conspirator, he should have his boat sold at auction and his license stripped. For the joker who took the console and the phone, I think fair restitution would be to fine him the cost it takes to repair the damage he caused. From what I am told, underwater welding operations aren't cheap.

If the Capt. isn't found guilty then so be it. I never said he was guilty, but I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't involved, or at the very least negligent. If you drive a thief to the jewelry store, then drive him away, you become an accessory to the crime. If you tell the thief where the jewels are at or the safe combination, you are going to share more of the load.

Sorry, that's just the way I see it.
 
boulderjohn:
In the meantime, have you read through all of Captain Tim's posts? Do you see any thing in them that indicates he did not know what the guy was doing? Do you see anywhere that he denies being of assistance?

Did you see his post where he compares divers who want to take things from the reef to divers who smoke in the no-smoking areas? To refresh your memory, he says it is not his place to stop either one.

Did you read the Yahoo post from the looter, who thanked the Captain for his help?

I am really amazed at the great adoration you have for him, all evidence to the contrary.

Why are you so hell-bent to crucify this man? Please don't answer that.
 
Don Janni:
With the understanding that you have created a hypothetical situation......

I think the Captain should have taken a strong position against such activity. Beyond that, I don't know what he should have done on that day, at that time and under those conditions. I wasn't there.

C'mon. I am responding to your assertion that he would not be liable as an accomplice, accessory, etc.

A totally hypothetical situation - I am not going to pull the rug out and say "ha...now go look at post #xxx sucka!"

If a Captain (any Captain - forget the particulars of this event) of a dive operation that visits the Oriskany 1) knew that one of its diver had taken an artifact from the Oriskany and 2) did not require the diver to return the artifact, do you think the Captain is potentially going to be criminally liable as an accomplice/accessory to what we know as a fact is a felony under Florida state law?
 
Hey you guys, this argument is going nowhere. The big picture here is to raise awareness about the problem. I assume the right people have the names now and they will conduct, I hope, an investigation.
 
PerroneFord:
The funny thing was that I was actually with you RIGHT to that point where you said you don't participte in witch hunts.

I don't know this Capt from Adam. Honestly could care less. If he's found to be a conspirator, he should have his boat sold at auction and his license stripped. For the joker who took the console and the phone, I think fair restitution would be to fine him the cost it takes to repair the damage he caused. From what I am told, underwater welding operations aren't cheap.

If the Capt. isn't found guilty then so be it. I never said he was guilty, but I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't involved, or at the very least negligent. If you drive a thief to the jewelry store, then drive him away, you become an accessory to the crime. If you tell the thief where the jewels are at or the safe combination, you are going to share more of the load.

Sorry, that's just the way I see it.

Okay... now this is better. NEGLIGENT is a clear possibility. Found guilty of negligence is not a crucification. Like I said a minute ago, I'm hopeful Thorsen has changed his behavior a bit.
 
Don Janni:
With the understanding that you have created a hypothetical situation......

I think the Captain should have taken a strong position against such activity. Beyond that, I don't know what he should have done on that day, at that time and under those conditions. I wasn't there.

Here's what he said on this topic:

I am a diving professional and this is my business, not just a occasional activity. This is what I do for a living and as such it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time. I continually discourage people to take things from the reefs, shoot illegal fish, dive after drinking the night before, drink after diving period, smoke cigarettes, lie, cheat, steal... We are all adults, or at least I assume most of us are on this board because I don't know the ages of all writers, and as such everyone is going to do whatever they choose regardless of my recommendations or suggestions. The only one's who I can have direct control over their actions are the Instructor candidates who if they don't listen and respond with correction of their actions then we simply don't certify them as instructors and let them into the diving mainstream. Even the ones who give lip service to what is right only to go on and do what is wrong eventually, again, only they are responsible for their own actions.
...

As to the question of did I allow it? As stated previously... it is not a matter of allowing someone to do what they are going to do regardless. Florida law prohibits smoking in any common areas where there are smokers and non-smokers and the head on our boat is off limits, but on most trips where smokers are on board, despite our directly addressing this fact in our pre-trip briefing, smokers continually go into the head and do thier thing. Do you guys think we can't smell it? Should I throw these individuals overboard? Of course not. You yourself would not appreciate being challenged or confronted, especially openly or publicly. I try to treat eveyone with fairness and to provide for their personal enjoyment. I am not going to be an "***" to anyone just because someone dosn't like what they choose to do otherwise, you would have to be an *** to eveyone because noone does everything just the way any of us would like it.

He said that stopping him from taking the materials would make him an "***" to that person, and he clearly indicated that he has this attitude for business reasons. In an earlier post (page 16), he said he did not want to embarrass anyopne publically.

If you check through the flood of posts that followed, you will see that many people told of being on dive boats where the captain made it perfectly clear that certain laws were in effect, and that they would be obeyed or else.

I was one of those who posted such a comment, and I stand by it. If I were the captain on that day, I would have done what countless others have done in the same situation:

Tell the people ahead of time that it is not allowed, not let them into the water with the burglar tools, and (if still necessary) dealtwith them afterwards in a way that would is a lot more than embarrassing.
 
I find it hard to believe that the Captain didn't know what was going on.... whether he said anything (to the diver) or not.

First, you have a diver with "burglar tools" that had to be seen by him or his crew (his daughter). Hard to hide a mallet, chisel, hacksaw, etc from all the other folks on the boat. Especially when they are most likely all attached to you in case you drop them.

Second, the diver brought up his "prize" the control panel. Surely he "showed it off". How could the captain and/or deckhand not notice that?

Third, the captain "gave directions" to the prized chrome phone. Now since this captain has given directions to others, I'm sure it was to tell him about the phone he liked. But he should have know better to tell someone with "burglar tools" where to find the goodies. So you again "have to wonder what he was thinking!

Fourth, the captain apparantly didn't say anything to him after the control panel between the dives to stop him from retrieving the 2nd item.

Fifth, he made no "apparant" attempt to stop any of this or report any of this...


Now, like Don Janni, I don't think this Captain was directly involved in this.... but he definately was "driving the getaway vehicle".

I'm sure with this debate and the numerous emails and phone calls he's received that we can hope he has learned a valuable lesson. I somehow doubt that this captain will let this activity continue on his boat. But he does bear responsibility for what happens on his boat....

Like Diver Dennis said, the argument is going nowhere. Lets focus on preventative measures to keep the wreck intact of other divers to enjoy.

I look forward to diving the wreck/reef ot the USS Oriskany. I just hope it hasn't been "pilfered" piece-by-piece before I, or other divers, have the opportunity to dive it.

-Mike
 
Diver Dennis:
Hey you guys, this argument is going nowhere.
I agree.
This discussion has done a lot of good (and will continue to do so), so lets not lessen it by dragging it to an undesirable level.
Let the chips now fall where they may.
 
From the embedded post earlier - "it is not a matter of allowing someone to do what they are going to do regardless"

To me, it's attitudes like this that explains why we have kids dealing drugs, dogs biting people and general feeling of resentment towards those people that simply watch it happen.

.... and... I can't remember the last time someone smoked in the head on a plane....

So just because the scuba police is not out, you have no way of controling people's actions? People must walk all over you in everyday life.

This whole topic is not new and when I hear of another instance of it happening, it makes me wonder about people. And when people make excuses like that, I stop wondering why people act that way and just shake my head.
 
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